Does anyone know when the streetcar stopped running on this alley stretch, which is roughly from Hodiamont to Enright (a block or two before Grand)?



It can be seen as the little alley in this satellite image that runs to the north of Cabanne, but then curves down past Fountain Park and the alley behind Enright before turning onto Enright before it hits Vandeventer.



Using this line would have several benefits.



1. The area can almost match the architecture of many of the houses in the Central West End. It would touch at least three undervalued neighborhoods: Cabanne, West End, and Fountain Park. The line would also still be walking distance from Delmar and the nodes of the CWE.



2. It is denser (or at least has the potential to be) than the area south of Delmar and east of Union, so it would be used more than if Joe Edwards ran the trolley all the way down Delmar to Euclid like some people want.



3. It runs down it's own right of way, so traffic is not much of an issue unless it has to cross the street. An elevated track is also a possibility (not a likely one) to eliminate that problem.



4. It could connect to the Metrolink line at Delmar and Grand. There is also the possibility of continuing the line up Hodiamont, north to the Wellston Loop and south down Grand.



I think that the city of St. Louis should appeal to the private sector to build this line. Assuming that the city still owns Suburban trak, they should sell it to the highest bidder and sell the right of way at the intersections (with an easement for vehicle and pedestrian traffic, of course). The city would also have to promise to halt any bus routes that are too similar to the line. The saved money could be spent on other bus routes or keeping Metrolink in the black.



St. Louis could be a leader in showing that private public transport is still a possibility. If no company bids on it when it is announced, that does not necessarily mean it is a failure. Businesses in the near future would at least know that the city is willing and that they would not have to deal with red tape to get it going. The city should also be open to selling right of ways for other streets as well. I think we would see a North-South line a lot faster than the two decades it will probably take for Metro to do it.

^ Or untill the City and the private sectore together are more creative in exploring ways to develope private transit. On the whole I like the idea of using the right of way. My biggest concern is that even if fully developed, the surrounding area would be without the clear draws at any one point to make such a line really sucessful. I mean, in a creative world, those seeking to develope streetcars in St. Louis are best to do so by esentialy having the city giveaway the ROW's for such a line combined with extensive subsidies to developers with several key large parcel blocks. But there are no large scale parcels along the route to serve as the anchors of such a line in the way that say a southside street car line with the city working with developers for lines like the Chouteau's Landing area, the Lemp Brewery site, and a few other large scale vacant properties along such a route. Combined with downtown at one end, then you have the ingrediants to have the private sector play a key roll in transit development. None of the ingrediants are there along the suburban tract line (heck, I wonder if they are there along the proposed Loop trolly line).

Who is going to bid on this and where does the city obtain the funds to construct this line? There is absolutely no market potential for a private operator to build a line there based upon demand and privately invested capital. The City can't support the services it already has today and shows no interest among the current elected leaders to change thatm or develop a city government focus on transit.

The answer is, I have no idea who would bid on the line. There aren't really any private streetcar companies left in existance that I know of. That's because transportation has basically become a government monopoly. At least announcing the willingness to sell or donate right of ways would attract some entrepreneurs. Perhaps some individuals working for the companies that currently build trains for the government would form a streetrail based on their knowledge. The government also has to chose between bidding companies for construction. Those that lose out can try to earn a profit on the market.



Even if there exists no one willing at this current time, the economy is always evolving and demand could exist in the future. At least keep the door open/cut the red tape for that opportunity. The private company would build and maintain the track. The city would only gain money by the sale of the ROW.

Those promoting the Delmar Street trolley have asserted that it could be privately operated to make a profit. If so, it will the first privately operated trolley to make a profit that I have heard of. Mr. Edwards is looking for FTA funds for at least some of the cost for this service. If this venture could make a profit, you would risk private capital to make this investment.

Whoa, when did they say that? I'm very glad to hear that!



You mean first privately operated trolley to make a profit in the 21st century.



I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in that last sentence. Are you saying that if this line was profitable, people would have already invested in it being built? I don't think anyone would risk money investing in something that city hall might be against. Again, if they announced that they are open to private transit, I think a lot more people would at least look at the feasibility of it.

Bastiat, I do see where you are going with private transit, but it may not come about until after the public transit has been more commonplace, when we are a transit culture again, and when it is economically viable for the average American again.

I see what you are saying, but I think that a lot of people want that option, but it is not there. I have several friends who just moved to Chicago and love taking the El to work. This demand could definetely be met in St. Louis, and I think that it could be done more quickly with the carrot of profit dangling in front of people's noses.



I do not think that a rail company could just build a rail and run trains and expect this to work. This would work more like the first private streetrails, where it was commonplace for the streetcar stockholders to buy up large holdings of real estate near the line and make it liveable. The historical owner of the farmland where downtown Clayton now sits was a major shareholder in the streetcar company that eventually built the line to there.



Luckily, these neighborhoods, although having fallen on hard times, are still full of nice historic houses. With the increase in property values and influx of new residents, new construction, etc the stockholders would make a profit in excess of the startup costs. As more residents move in, the ridership will increase and the company will be able to make a steady profit. Or at least that's the way I would do it. Maybe Blairmont is preparing to buy the Florissant or Jefferson right of way?

My biggest concern is that even if fully developed, the surrounding area would be without the clear draws at any one point to make such a line really sucessful.

Okay, I agree assuming that you're only talking about Suburban Trak by itself, but what about if it went up Hodiamont to the Wellston Loop and past Grand Center and SLU to Tower Grove? I think those areas would be a draw of interest in themselves, but the people transfering to Metrolink to go downtown or Clayton or the airport would increase ridership as well.

Okay, I agree assuming that you're only talking about Suburban Trak by itself, but what about if it went up Hodiamont to the Wellston Loop and past Grand Center and SLU to Tower Grove? I think those areas would be a draw of interest in themselves, but the people transfering to Metrolink to go downtown or Clayton or the airport would increase ridership as well.

Exactly my point. Even with Grand Center at one end and Wellston at the other, I am not sure the demand would exist to make such a line feasible. I mean, if you are going to propose such a modern day odity and see it suceed, I would think that the test project would be more with many more natural draws, such as downtown or Clayton at one end or along the route.



For example, you jokingly talk about the Blairmont folks and all the property they own on the near north side. But remember, if the city were open to such private rail development and Blairmont's goal were to develope a large swath of land on the near north side combined with convienent rail access to downtown, then you have the perfect situation for private rail development, very similar to the development that first fueled rail development. I mean if the City gave Blairmont the development rights to the Igoe Site combined with large swaths of city owned land on the north side, then you can begin to constuct the density and nodes needed along any rail line (combined with a land owner who could capture most of the increased value assoicated with the new rails) to make such a line possible. I just see very few of those things, other than cheap land to buy up, to make that particular route possible.



I do think such a plan, in other areas is very viable. It is more concering that the Metrolink folks think it is not. Maybe that explains their reluctance to develope those properties they own that could be used to increase density along the current routes.

southslider wrote:But then why not just stay on Delmar to Taylor then Olive or Washington east of Taylor all the way Downtown? IOW, if you're already on Delmar west of DeBaliviere, and on Olive or Washington east of Taylor, why not continue on Delmar between DeBaliviere and Taylor?



And what do you really gain anyway from the Hodiamont ROW? If it's truly a streetcar, run it in the street, not an exclusive alley.



I also think Delmar-Taylor-Olive from the Loop to Downtown, where west of Grand, borders the CWE enough that people would psychologically use such a streetcar without feeling in North City, yet it's close enough to underutilized areas of North City ripe for development.



Besides, Hodiamont runs in an alley behind single-family homes. I think the dense, multi-story, mixed use development necessary to warrant a streetcar would more likely happen along boulevards like Delmar and Olive than a residential alley.

Keep in mind, the Suburban Trak/Hodiamont route would be years down the road. The Loop Trolley will have been running for a least a couple of years. The Loop and the CWE will have been connected with development along Delmar (such as the planned 4 story condo/retail at Delmar and Goodfellow and the Loop Center, etc) and have development planned in the remaining vacant lots. Houses/apartments to the north of Delmar will be going under rehab (some already are) and the area will resemble the FPSE area of today (in terms of rehabbing, etc).



There are also lots of three story apartment buildings in the area north of Delmar and vacant lots available for development. If these are rehabbed/developed, you would have more density than many other areas in the city. Having the Hodiamont/Suburban trak would hasten this development as well as that of the Wellston Loop. I think this area will also need its own Preservation Review board or whatever it is called so that these homes will become eligible for tax incentives.



The right of way is nice because it allows for faster travel because it would not have to deal with traffic.