Reading about the Loop's proposed street cars i started thinking about what other neighborhoods could definitely use (and support) a trolley line (in other words neighborhoods that have the density to house a sizable population and with work/play destinations that could probably provide the ridership numbers to make the line a transportation option and not a costly tourist line).



I think one obvious starter line would be from Mid-town Grand Center to South Grand (somewhere by Cherokee). It would further connect the mid-town SLU student population to South Grand, and the sizable young adult/creativeclass population of South Grand/Tower Grove to the Mid-town Grand area. More importantly it would provide metrolink users an easy mass transit hop in either north-south direction (be they coming from west or east). With large employers like SLU and Cardinal Glennon's Children's Hospital along the line i could see additional ridership numbers large enough to support the line. Even though i have to say Metrolink would probably have to offer some kind of one day combo deal so people could easily and conveniently jump from one line to another.



Do you all know of any other transportation corridors where a starter trolley line would be feasible (especially any that intersect with existing or proposed Metrolink lines)? (by starter line i'm saying a very bare bones, 2 mile-ish line, like the Loop line)

how about starts in lafayette sq...through city hospital...via kiel center metro link stop/amshack version 2...city hall...up tucker to just north of washington ave

The Grand line is probably one of the best choices... and was heavily used in the past. My dad talks a lot about how they used to catch a streetcar on Grand from Tower Grove to Sportsmans Park to watch baseball games. As a matter of fact, the 1944 baseball World Series was dubbed the "Streetcar Series", marking the last time all games of a World Series were played on the same field. But I digress.



A line had also been proposed several years ago to run north/south from Laclede's Landing past Anheuser-Busch to Cherokee Street (antique row). This could end up being more of a touristy line, but would connect Soulard and Benton Park with Metrolink stops downtown and on the Landing.

It would be great to have streetcars operating on a criss-cross network through the city, from Delmar in U. City to the DeBaliviere Metro station, south to Lindell, following Lindell/Olive into downtown. Grand Avenue would be a great north/south corridor. Wishful thinking...

All this talk about new streetcar lines, it kind of makes you mad that we abandoned all of ours. We could have an amazing system now, and be way ahead of the times. Which is kind of ironic when you talk about streetcars.

MattnSTL wrote:All this talk about new streetcar lines, it kind of makes you mad that we abandoned all of ours. We could have an amazing system now, and be way ahead of the times. Which is kind of ironic when you talk about streetcars.

I wonder whatever happened to all of those trolleys? Were they sold to somewhere else- SF or Europe? Were they dismantled for parts? or could they be collecting dust in some long forgotten warehouse? A guy can dream cant he?



Just think of the system we could have if our forfathers approved the subway that was proposed when NYC, London and Boston were building theirs.

I know there is over 100 streetcars in storage out at the museum of transportation, from St. Louis and elsewhere, with two that actually run for rides. There are streetcars in storage and use literally everywhere across the country, you just have to find them.

par wrote:Just think of the system we could have if our forfathers approved the subway that was proposed when NYC, London and Boston were building theirs.

Do you know any specifics on the STL subway that never was? It's interesting think what might have been.[/u]

Wow, 100 streetcars! Too bad they couldn't have just donated ONE of them to the group trying to restore streetcar service to Delmar, so they wouldn't have had to go to GREECE to get the one they got!



Didn't Vince Schoemel mention that one of his goals was to get a streetcar line running from Grand Center to South Grand? That would be huge!

^That's from me (JIVE).

^ Wow! Thanks for the fascinating history.

Here's the link to that summary of the 1926 transit plan:



http://stlouis.missouri.org/government/ ... tation.htm

The project may have been shelved from 1926, which leaves space from 1926 to 1929 when something could have been built and abandoned like Cincinnati's, but the roads and arterials still exist. Florissant, Natural Bridge, MLK, Olive, Delmar, Washington, Market/FP Blvd. or Lindell, Chouteau, Lafayette, Russell, Arsenal, Gravois, Manchester, Cherokee, <east-west; Broadway, Tucker, 18th, Jefferson, Grand, Morganford, Kingshighway, Skinker/McCausland/Jamison probably would be the major ones. Streetcars have a great possibility of coming back if people give up their cars, and in a financially strapped country one day maybe subsidies for the auto industry, dealerships, and oil companies will dissolve and the U.S. will reinvent public transit. My grandmother loves to tell me about St. Louis back in the late 1930s to 1950s when EVEEYONE used the streetcar and their feet. She and my other grandparents acknowledge how the system was so convenient. Instead of just expanding the Metrolink why not reintroduce the subway plan with with an interwoven network of streetcars instead of buses. Whole streets in downtown should be closed to cars and made available to people and transit like in Portland and other cities. Only time will tell..........

As New Yorkers, we've always been unstoppable proselytizers. We've already started proselytizing for St. Louis. Whenever we mention we're moving there, we get two types of reactions:



The first type of reaction comes from people who know nothing but the now very old news of the city's decline, the huge population losses, the demolition of Pruitt-Igoe, and so on. And that reaction, based on zero knowledge, is what you'd expect: "St. Louis? Why on earth would anyone move THERE?"



The second type of reaction comes from people who grew up there, who went to school there, who have family there or who have had reason to be there from time to time over the years. Invariably, there's a broad, knowing smile, followed by words that go something like this: "St. Louis? I love St. Louis. The whole area's just so beautiful. It's all that driving you have to do that I can't stand."



These are New Yorkers talking, of course--people who think of mass transit as a God-given right. But these are exactly the kinds of people--city-lovers, in short--who are St. Louis's likeliest prospects as it attempts to build greater density and economic activity and recapture some of the population losses of the past.



Without MetroLink and MetroBus, and a "friends-of" group pushing for its expansion, my wife and I would never consider a move to StL. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that mass transit initiatives in a variety of modes are key to the city's future.



More buses! More trains! More trollies! And more vitality and prosperity as a result.

I posted a bit about the need for a streetcar line down Grand a few months ago. I hoenstly can't figure out why no one has made a serious proposal to build it. It just makes so much sense. .. I'll say it again .... a few street car lines coordinated with metrolink would do wonders for this city .... it should be cheaper than going completely light rail, and the city is already set up for street cars. ... The fact that this will probably never happen makes me want to bang my head against a wall ...



My father always told me that the street cars went south when the then mayor (I think he said it was Cervantees) fell in with the taxi companies. But then again my father also told me that he once had a try out with the Cincinnati Reds ... so take that with a grain of salt.

You're right - a Grand trolley is a no-brainer. If SLU students and employees had the opportunity to hop on a streetcar at the Frost Campus or the Med School Campus and take it down to South Grand, the benefits to the shops and restaurants there would be huge.

If you go to the city planning deparment's website, you can find the parking study they did for South Grand

http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/pla ... outhgrand/

(it looks like it's a serious problem for the businesses, since you have the urban density without the convenient mass transit option, so parking is pretty tough for customers). They came up with short and long term solutions, the longer term solution is a bit mixed.....



"The Long Term Parking Solution drawings show a 39% increase (542 parking spaces) in the Business District, requiring the demolition of 16 buildings. See spreadsheet 6.2 for statistics. Twelve of these buildings proposed for demolition are residential. Six of these buildings are in City Block 2102 directly behind the Dickman Buildings. Four of the buildings are in City Block 1484, behind Jay&#146;s International. Fronting

Grand, the three small buildings north of Babylon International are shown moved or demolished and the existing Phillips 66 Food Mart building is shown demolished to make way for a more compatible pedestrian

designed commercial development."



This is the exact same issue that got people thinking about the trolley line in the Loop (except Delmar has the "luxury" of that massive surface lot behind Blockbusters). I think they should start studying this trolley option as soon as possible before they do have to tear down buildings......

The Grand Bus line is the busiest Metro Bus so a streetcar would work well on Grand (as it did in the past). I believe that a streetcar system would work much better than light rail(and be much cheaper). The money saved could be used to teach St. Louisans to drive.

Any streetcar line will be tough to build until the Grand Avenue viaduct over the railyard gets replaced.



A few weeks ago, I drove on South Grand from Arsenal north and I noticed the 'Grand Visions' construction was going full bore. Would there still be room to build a streetcar in the South Grand business district after this project is done? Any pictures out there?

brickandmortar wrote:A few weeks ago, I drove on South Grand from Arsenal north and I noticed the 'Grand Visions' construction was going full bore. Would there still be room to build a streetcar in the South Grand business district after this project is done? Any pictures out there?

You might be able to see this on FOX2 news again when it is replayed at 1:00 AM. I am sure it will be on again tomorrow as well. They just aired a "You Paid For It" segment regarding the new medians going in. He is saying they ripped up the old medians, and now spending your tax money to put them back. The city is going to give it another try. He is saying tax payers are surprised to see these new medians going in.



First of all, has Elliot seen the old medians? Second, even before they ripped the old ones out, there were plans to have them replaced. It was already approved, just needed the funding in place. I for one had thought they were replacing them when I saw the old medians being ripped out when they repaved Grand a couple years ago... so I know it was approved before that happened. He really likes to twist things around.



He also states that the project cost $1.2 million in Federal Tax dollars and $500,000+ in St. Louis City tax dollars. He doesn't explain that there was a lot more work than just replacing the medians. The auto-oriented cobra lighting was removed and new lights were added, giving a more pedestrian friendly sidewalk. The road was narrowed by placing bump-outs in the parking lanes, effectively cutting down on cars flying down Grand Blvd., passing as many cars as they can, then cutting back in before hitting a parked car.



He seems to love going after visual improvements. So far he has gone after the I-70 overpass improvemnts paid for by MODOT, cross walk improvements in North St. Louis paid for with Federal dollars, and now the 'Grand Visions' construction project.



Back to the topic of discussion...

You can only imagine the segment he would air if they did any kind of reconstruction work to allow for a Grand Boulevard trolley line.

I think he goes after these because they are easy targets, and the general populace typically either does not understand, or does not do any investigation on their own. These things are also the reason he has the nickname Idiot Davis.

another no-brainer trolley line would be on Wash. Ave. from Laclede's landing to midtown, allowing easy access from DT to the FOX and other restaurants and amenities in the area. Now would be the time to think about it, as there's not too much traffic on Washington west of Jefferson and installation would cause relatively little disruption. I think development will come roaring west down Washington towards midtown one of these days.

markofucity wrote:My father always told me that the street cars went south when the then mayor (I think he said it was Cervantees) fell in with the taxi companies.

I was under the impression that GM and Firestone were incahoots in getting cities to dismantle their streetcar lines, thus making people rely on automobiles and buses with firestone tires. This was later found to be illegal and GM was fined something paltry like $5,000.

Now would be the time to think about it, as there's not too much traffic on Washington west of Jefferson and installation would cause relatively little disruption

Very true and a great proposition but the upseting question is where does it lie in the priorities list and funding sources. A future function of planning maybe solving these problems with people and little amounts of money like during a despression.



GM is already cutting 30,000 American employees with future ones to come making suing them this late impractical. The question is what will their legacy and history entail? "ruined mass transit to redirect and bull the market for transportation to meet their profits" modernism, eh?