I spoke to Matt, Marketing Director of The Bottle District, to get an update on the Bottle District's progress, and he told me that activity is progressing and more retailers are still in the works. He stated that groundbreaking will occur in February 2005.



He also told me that two new residential towers (100 units each) will rise in the district instead of one tower. He estimated that the towers will between 14-15 stories each. No renderings were available.



The revised residential component has been pushed up to be included in Phase I. A press release will be available in the future.







BTW, I encouraged Pat (Leasing) and Matt to check out urbanstlouis.com!

Sweet!! I had a good feeling they where going to add more Residential units. hopefully there will be more down the road.

Very good news. I think residential will be a key component to getting people walking the streets and using retail during the off times, just like the rest of downtown. The taller, the better.

MattnSTL wrote:Very good news. I think residential will be a key component to getting people walking the streets and using retail during the off times, just like the rest of downtown. The taller, the better.

I agree, because they can't count on people from st. chuck to frequent this place. They need to create their own market of people to draw from and what better group if they live upstairs.

Great news ... seems like everyday! Thank Goodness!



This is a FABULOUS project and really will be an enhancement to the north end of downtown!



I love the Bowling Alley component!

ArchMadness wrote:Also...



Arch City, you intrigue me because you are always talking to developers and what not. Do you work in real estate? Do you call them for any other reason other than to update the website? Just curious because I do what you do, but I do it for work here in mpls.

I don't work in real estate, but I should though.



I simply have no problem asking people questions. What's the worst thing they could do? Tell me, "No thank you", and hang up on me? I prepare myself for that.



Some developers are reserved about giving information about their projects, but I find that most developers are usually flattered that an "ordinary" citizen is intrigued by their projects. These guys love to talk about their projects when they have time, of course.



It's almost like an artist talking about his or her music or artwork.

Am I the only one who is concerned about the success of this development?



I'm generally as optimistic as they come on the subject of downtown development, but this whole project has a few potential red flags:



1. Isolated location - It's north of the dome, which separates it from the downtown CBD, and is separated from Laclede's Landing by Highway 70. The poorly-conceived suburban office buildings just west of the convention center don't help it either.



2. Safety concerns - I can't imagine that many people in the Bottle District's target audience are too comfortable with the idea of driving around housing projects



3. Closed streets - Bad idea, as many posters on this forum have discussed previously



4. Concept - Do we really need a big entertainment district? The whole thing sounds like it will be like St. Louis Centre - initially successful before attendance starts to dwindle. I'd rather see entertainment venues better integrated into the fabric of the CBD.

I am not that concerned, but I hear you. I like to think that developers know what they getting into before they invest millions into a project. In this case, $200+-million.



Such investment doesn't mean it won't fail, but I would think the developers would have explored all options to make such a district successful. It may explain why expanded residential is being added to Phase 1.



To respond to your potential red flags, this is the way I see it:



1. Granted the BD's locale is more constrained, but so is LL's to a certain extent. Laclede's Landing itself is separated by I-70 and industrial complexes to the north, but people still go there because of its offerings. People work there. BD will have to be as unique. The advantage for LL is MetroLink. The BD may have to network with the downtown trolley service and Metro to make up for its isolation. The BD could even have its own shuttle like Navy Pier does in Chicago.



I personally don't think the buildings are suburban. They definitely have a lot of glass and are short, but suburban? Perhaps the closed street and the setbacks of the front buildings give a suburban impression, but one thing that downtown St. Louis is missing a lot of, in my opinion, is glass.



St. Louis itself is so "bricked out" that it can have a dated look sometimes even when a lot of the buildings are new. I think BD's architecture has good contrast.







2. The Cochran Gardens is being torn down. A $72-million mixed-income project will take its place. I'm sure the developers would not be putting the BD in an unsafe place.



3. The closed streets could pose a problem, but the entertainment seems to be that one-of-a-kind entertainment that will draw people regardless just because of its uniqueness. As with the Loop, I have to park and walk if I want to get to one of my favorite restaurants - yet its streets are wide open.



4. The BD is not just an entertainment district. It is really a mixed-use development - office, residential, shopping, and entertainment.



St. Louis Centre's failure was largely because of parking issues and the St. Louis Galleria's opening. If Bottle District stays unique amenity and retail wise, I don't see how it could fail - especially with the residential and office components.

^Ya, like when that unsuspecting person asked how to get to Union Station and she got 10 replies at the same time. God we're losers

it seems the Bottle District is specifically designed to feed and play off of the Dome and the Convention Center's activities (atleast that's what McGuire said), and i think that's the logic behind the pedestrian only stuff and what not (he's back in the 80's/90's on that one) thinking that the people who are going to be using this are mostly tourists and conventioneers who will probably just park their car somewhere and walk there to enjoy the outdoor mall. It's not necessarily about creating a neighborhood to the north or extending the grid of uses that way (from all signs it looks very cut off from the surrounding neighborhood (in terms of design, traffic and lay out ((doesn't look like any retail or storefronts or anything on the outside facing the rest of the neighborhood, it's very much turned in on itself))). To me this wouldnt be so bad if it weren't for the fact that both the dome and the convention center have some really bad "blank-wall" syndrome going on their western and northern sides, and for projects these large they really kill the surrounding area's potential for being cool (or being a part of downtown in general). This project, from the looks of it, although cool for extending activity and liveliness northwards, fails to "open up the doors to downtown" so to speak in the way it treats the near north side..... Then again with a residential component on the western side, maybe further renderings will show how that portion of the project connects to the area. However i've yet to see the project that moves northwards with open arms, instead of backing into it, and from all signs i don't know if this will be the first.

I don't know, the whole thing just seems a little weird to me, but I definitely appreciate everyone's responses. I really want this development to be a success, so I don't want anyone to think that I'm being pessimisstic or anything.



I guess I just have a hard time picturing a tourist from the Adam's Mark, Marriott, Renaissance or Embassy Suites (Laclede's Landing) walking completely around the dome (when there's no event taking place there, and it's completely dead) to get to the Bottle District. For tourists, the walk to the district will be through a total dead zone, which may be daunting for people who aren't familiar with the area. The district itself may end up being quite vibrant, but there is nothing to connect it with the rest of downtown where all the people are. Maybe some kind of a shuttle service would help.



On game days, or during daytime conventions, the district may be hopping, so I guess that will help its success.

We haven't even seen a rendering with one residential tower. I would suspect those are more open to the west, promoting more integration with the surrounding areas. Like Arch City, I am not rerally too worried about this. The only thing I think should be changed is maybe have some times where the streets are open to traffic, and other times where the streets are closed.



It will be successful, they may just need some ways to promote it one the other side of the dome, and maybe provide some sort of a shuttle, maybe from on of the Metrolink stops. Hopefully the developers checked us out after AC called, and will take some of these suggestions into account.

Maybe the BD will act as sort of a gateway from the northside. Hopefully it will have good connections to the northside street grid. I do agree with DeBaliviere that many tourists will not want to walk around the dome to get to the BD, but hopefully the number of cabs will increase with the increase in activity and it would only be a $3 ride.



Arch City...keep up the work. We are always thankful for your efforts

^Thanks.



I think DeBaliviere and ComandanteCero raise good and reasonable concerns, but I still think they are jumping the gun just a tiny bit.



From the start, BD developers made a point to suggest that the design and elements of the district could change. Evidence of this is the fact that Matt of the BD told me they were adding two 100 unit residential towers ? so apparently what we have seen to-date are working renderings. Who knows what else is up their sleeves.



Also, isn't 6th Street, where this development will rise, already closed down on the northern end or access is very poor because of its proximity to I-70? I think it dead ends into O'Fallon St., but I could be wrong. I never recall being able to access downtown from I-70 along 6th Street. Perhaps this factored into their decision to close the street altogether.



Anyway, I don't think BD is solely for tourists. It is a multi-use development for different kinds of patrons - tourists, residents, and workers, etc. Attracting convention goer's is just one type of patron investors hope to get at BD. While I am sure Rawlings and Cabo Wabo Cantina will attract tourists, it will also attract office workers and residents from the region.



Furthermore, I know when I go to a particular city, if I am told that a certain place is a neat place to go to, I go there. I don't give a lot of thought to "walls" or barriers.



For example, it was very difficult to find Carson St. in Pittsburgh for the first time from our CBD hotel. Pittsburgh's Union Station area, a strip like The Loop (Carson St.), an incline, and everything are on this street. Being tourists, we must have crossed every bridge in downtown Pittsburgh before we finally landed on Carson Street, took the incline, toured Station Square, and ate at Philthy McNasty's Sports Bar (the only U.S. location at the time).



I personally think we may be putting ourselves into the mindset of an actual St. Louis tourist too much, but I respect the comments. And even though some tourists/convention folk may have to walk from the CVC on Washington Ave., let's not forget many of the conventions are actually held in the dome, which would be right across the street.



The BD could actually help build pedestrian traffic in this part of downtown.



On an aesthetic note, what I think would be good if BD developers could put the garages underground, that way there wouldn't be so much of a barrier to the nearby residential complexes, which are mostly working class now. Maybe this is already re-done because if one were to look at the aerial rendering, where would the two towers go? On top of the garages?



I think we need to mindful that plans change as developers refine their projects.





{Sorry for the length}

I also think that a Rawlings bar would be a better fit for Ballpark Village, but that's another story.



Anyway, I agree with you that most tourists don't give a lot of thought to perceived barriers, but then again, if the Bottle District is not thoughtfully connected to the rest of downtown, some people might be resistant to make the trek to it. Think about standing on Washington at night, say at 9th Street or Broadway, facing north. Neither view is all that appealing, and I can't imagine that too many people will be all that eager to start walking north based on that view. Maybe if the parking lots behind the Bankers Lofts, Lammert Building, etc. were redeveloped with new buildings to integrate those huge vacant lots into the rest of downtown, it wouldn't be such a big deal.



I guess another reason I'm not crazy about this project is that I would rather see the elements of it be built in other areas of downtown, like 11th and Locust for example.



I do agree with you about the garages - they should be underground and as inconspicuous as possible and hopefully in a location that will encourage visitors to get out and walk around, not just get out of their cars, eat dinner, then immediately go back home.

I think everyone would like to see underground garages. The discussion previously had brought up closed streets... I think it could work if done right. Not to compare the Bottle District with Westport Plaza, but Westport does have some underground parking. You can park your car, walk up a stairwell and you are right in the middle of a pedestrian plaza. Maybe convenient underground parking wouldn?t solve the problem of a closed streets, but I think it offers more possibilities if incorporated into the plan.

I thought an underground garage was a part of the plan.

They may be part of the plan... I don't know too much about the project details. It was suggested in this thread that parking be placed underground, so I just assumed that underground parking was not incorporated.

From the thread in the retial section



"The Bottle District features:



500,000 square feet of entertainment and retail venues, including a concert venue, kart racing, a bowling alley and more

175,000 square feet of dining attractions

A full-service grocery store

More than 150 hotel rooms (2008)

More than 250 contemporary residential units

45,000 square feet of premium office space

\Underground parking to Bottle District customers

Pedestrian courtyards with a grand view and fountains

A unique pedestrian environment, with intimate courtyards, wide sidewalks and an entire street reserved for walking."