^ I'm glad I kept reading, the "east coast partner" was elusive - and not really news as they've been in since the beginning. Strange source for a headline is all I'm saying. I'm guessing that what has now been announced was the vision Steffen sold to Spinaker some time back. Anyway, nice to seek another positive story.
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JCity wrote:Face it, the majority of people in St. Louis still drive. Charging cars $12/ day to park WILL prevent this area from becoming a hot retail area,imho. Yes, in Chicago, NY, they can charge $20-50/Day. This is St. Louis and the "convenience" of parking at a mall for FREE is very real. Joe Edwards owns the HUGE lot to the north of the Loop and could easily charge people to park there, but he has said he won't because he's competing with malls in the county.
Hopefully they'll look into some common-sense solutions for parking. Merchants could offer free or reduced-rate parking for those that make a nominal purchase in one or more of the stores located within the MX area.
It's been a couple of years since I was last in Indianapolis for an extended period of time, but the last time I checked, it cost only $3 or $4 to park for the day at Circle Centre. GGP would be wise to consider offering similarly inexpensive parking, validation for purchases, and encouraging Macy's to lower the rates and/or offer validated parking for its garage.
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^ Last time I was in Indy I think it was $1/hr. That's cheap enough that I don't even really think about it - plus the garages there you actually park closer to the building that you do at the Galleria using the surface lots . . .
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^ That sounds correct to me. IIRC, the garage in which I parked had a maximum rate, which I think was $4 or $5. Can't beat that!
I also find it funny (and sad) that many suburbanites who express no desire to go downtown due to the lack of adjacent parking have no problem navigating across the vast seas of asphalt at mile-long shopping centers like Chesterfield Commons or Gravois Bluffs in Fenton.
I also find it funny (and sad) that many suburbanites who express no desire to go downtown due to the lack of adjacent parking have no problem navigating across the vast seas of asphalt at mile-long shopping centers like Chesterfield Commons or Gravois Bluffs in Fenton.
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^ My favorite is the person who circles the Wal-Mart parking lot for 10mins looking for a close spot only to walk 2 miles once in the store to pick up some undershirts, paint thinner, dishwashing detergent and an Ace-Ventura Pet Detective Special Edition DVD. (Yep - I'm way off topic)
No, what's scary is that 42% of respondents to Channel 2's web poll say that even with the two announcements this week they still will not go Downtown. Obviously unscientific, but we still have a lot of minds to change. All this good news is certainly helping, but we need even more.
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^ No we don't - if 58% of 2.6M people go downtown to shop the new retail should do just fine! 
Grover wrote:^ My favorite is the person who circles the Wal-Mart parking lot for 10mins looking for a close spot only to walk 2 miles once in the store to pick up some undershirts, paint thinner, dishwashing detergent and an Ace-Ventura Pet Detective Special Edition DVD. (Yep - I'm way off topic)
That can't be right. A DVD would be much too high class for that person.
Grover wrote:^ No we don't - if 58% of 2.6M people go downtown to shop the new retail should do just fine!
I thought of it that way, but it's still that perception issue.
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MattnSTL wrote:Grover wrote:^ No we don't - if 58% of 2.6M people go downtown to shop the new retail should do just fine!
I thought of it that way, but it's still that perception issue.
Good call, but I wonder what the results would be if the question was: will you go to Richmond Heights to shop this year? What do we think would be the result for the metro area? I mean, those in Chesterfield have no reason to go there, South County either, St. Charles - nope. I would love to see the results to the following poll question: Do you plan to travel to the Chesterfield Valley to shop this year? What? Only 30%?!?!? Wow - that development must be a failure. Of course I kid - negative perception regarding downtown is an impediment and important, but my point is that I don't think the poll numbers are going to move much in the next decade no matter what. We might as well post a news flash stating that downtown is no longer the only place to shop and work - maybe the amazing thing is that 42% in the survey would go downtown.
True. Maybe I'm just annoyed that these people don't plan to go downtown at all. Of course, when you can get everything in your giant strip mall, why should you?
And it's late and we are really both just padding our post counts.
And it's late and we are really both just padding our post counts.
Just got back from a trip to AT&T Park here in SF for Barry Bond's last home game. While their setting on the water is nicer than Busch, our stadium itself is better. Walked down from Union SQ area to the game, then took a bus back - really convenient and an option a lot of people took advantage of. On a Wednesday night at close to 11pm, the streets are still packed.
There are lots of homeless, agressive panhandlers, etc throughout this area, but it doesn't seem to stop people from coming. There's also a large mall, with a Bloomingdales, Nordstrom and multiple levels of stores and a great food court right in the heart of the shopping district - managed by Westfield to boot, that manages to coexist with all the street level retail.
There are lots of homeless, agressive panhandlers, etc throughout this area, but it doesn't seem to stop people from coming. There's also a large mall, with a Bloomingdales, Nordstrom and multiple levels of stores and a great food court right in the heart of the shopping district - managed by Westfield to boot, that manages to coexist with all the street level retail.
I'm not real familiar with the retailing options in the St. Louis region. Have there been any lifestyle centers that have opened in the area? And, if there are, how are they doing? It seems to me that the concept for the Mecantile Exchange is similar to a lifestyle center retail development. Only this center proposes to use a number of historic buildings with real architectural character and diversity instead of "replicating" or trying to replicate this look and atmosphere in a suburban setting.
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Dina mentioned Walgreen's, and while not the most exciting retailer, it's still one I would love to have back downtown. Conventioneers and tourists need a pharmacy close to the hotels, I'd use it during the work day, and I'm sure other workers would as well, and of course, there's the thousands of downtown residents.
Now, all y'all who complain about negativism sometimes have a double standard. You pointed out the KTVI poll, but no one cited yesterday's P-D poll about the probable success of BPV and the Merchant's Exchange. The choices included success of BPV, success of ME, success of both -- and failure in all three combinations. The biggest vote-getter was success of both, and the majority of respondents (at least when I looked) were voting in the "success" categories. (It might have even been a pure majority for "success of both.")
Several articles have mentioned an increase in downtown population by 5,000. Can this number have any real meaning to anything? Doesn't the demographic data used by developers usually include a radius of 5 - 10 miles? And isn't this the area from which projects succeed or fail?
If so, I do think the probability of success is high.
Development should service the community first.
If so, I do think the probability of success is high.
Development should service the community first.
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bonwich wrote:Now, all y'all who complain about negativism sometimes have a double standard. You pointed out the KTVI poll, but no one cited yesterday's P-D poll about the probable success of BPV and the Merchant's Exchange. The choices included success of BPV, success of ME, success of both -- and failure in all three combinations. The biggest vote-getter was success of both, and the majority of respondents (at least when I looked) were voting in the "success" categories. (It might have even been a pure majority for "success of both.")
Agreed! When I saw the above post I was going to cite the paper's poll but got sidetracked. I think when I voted it was like 59% success of both and the failures were in both in the low single digits.
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When I first heard them announce this project earlier in the week I couldn't help but think of the North Bridge devolvement in Chicago. I can remember just 12 years ago when this area west of Michigan Ave was a vast wasteland of surface lots. Now it contains a great mix of residential, retail, hotels and businesses. This could be a model for the Merchant Exchange district.
Speaking of DT's population, when does everyone think it'll be enough to support things like retail, entertainment, etc. that other towns are able to support without us questioning whether people from the county will drive in? 15,000, 20,000, 25,000? Also, when are the estimated dates that downtown will hit these numbers?
A few thoughts:
1. I am glad to see Pyramid gathering all of its proposed projects in the area under one central banner to better market them. Moreover, the idea of a 6th Street retail district is one that comes about 25 years to late.
2. I am somewhat concerned as to whether the combined retail proposed by the existing organic development, the BPV, and the MX will be far in excess of what can be supported by downtown either now or within 10 years.
3. Yet another major retail district. Sounds like another nail in the coffin of Union Station.
4. Given the current nature of 6th street, even with the proposed reuse of ground floor retail spaces such as the former Woolworth's space, I am not sure I like 6th street as a retail street. Most of the surrounding buildings have their loading areas facing onto 6th, thereby making it one of the most dead streets downtown (Walnut being another contender for this title).
Given that Pyramid also has worked on the Arcade and Paul Brown projects combined work on the Chemical Building the construction of the OPO and City Center Garages, the Roberts Tower, and the potential reuse of the Union Trust building, I do not understand the choice of 6th street as the focus for downtown retail. Seems like the MX district would be better considered as a loop of 7th and 8th streets. Rather than the further east 7th, 6th, and Broadway combo proposed by Pyramid.
Two most important things in the announcement:
1.
2. The addition and preservation of on-street parking spaces in the area, especially along Washington Avenue.
Two issues this brings up:
Parking: Given the proposal for 3,000 new spaces in the BPV, combined with the MX district and the construction of two new downtown garages, it is time for downtown to consider improving the parking technology downtown. On-street meters should be upgraded to the centralized technology seen in other major cities (taking advantage of their user-friendly nature, increased parking revenue, and ability to increase parking capacity). Downtown should upgrade to the centralized electronic parking monitor systems seen in Europe, allowing downtown visitors to make better use of existing parking supplies before deciding if downtown needs yet another garage.
A new downtown Plan: Last commissioned in 1999, given the progress in the intervening years, so much has changed to make the document outdated. Given the need to address parking, signage, and greenspace issues holistically, a new master plan is in order to guide future development. BTW, downtown and the City should only bother with this if they are committed to following the plan as a blueprint for downtown, not a glossy coffee-table book to
1. I am glad to see Pyramid gathering all of its proposed projects in the area under one central banner to better market them. Moreover, the idea of a 6th Street retail district is one that comes about 25 years to late.
2. I am somewhat concerned as to whether the combined retail proposed by the existing organic development, the BPV, and the MX will be far in excess of what can be supported by downtown either now or within 10 years.
3. Yet another major retail district. Sounds like another nail in the coffin of Union Station.
4. Given the current nature of 6th street, even with the proposed reuse of ground floor retail spaces such as the former Woolworth's space, I am not sure I like 6th street as a retail street. Most of the surrounding buildings have their loading areas facing onto 6th, thereby making it one of the most dead streets downtown (Walnut being another contender for this title).
Given that Pyramid also has worked on the Arcade and Paul Brown projects combined work on the Chemical Building the construction of the OPO and City Center Garages, the Roberts Tower, and the potential reuse of the Union Trust building, I do not understand the choice of 6th street as the focus for downtown retail. Seems like the MX district would be better considered as a loop of 7th and 8th streets. Rather than the further east 7th, 6th, and Broadway combo proposed by Pyramid.
Two most important things in the announcement:
1.
About damn time! Signage is especially important, because downtown signage is crap.Steffen expects to receive $30 million in tax incentives under the state's Downtown Economic Stimulus Act to improve the streetscape with planters, trees and decorative street lighting. The upgrades will extend beyond Mercantile Exchange to cover landscaping for about two-thirds of downtown streets, said Barbara Geisman, deputy mayor for development.
2. The addition and preservation of on-street parking spaces in the area, especially along Washington Avenue.
Two issues this brings up:
Parking: Given the proposal for 3,000 new spaces in the BPV, combined with the MX district and the construction of two new downtown garages, it is time for downtown to consider improving the parking technology downtown. On-street meters should be upgraded to the centralized technology seen in other major cities (taking advantage of their user-friendly nature, increased parking revenue, and ability to increase parking capacity). Downtown should upgrade to the centralized electronic parking monitor systems seen in Europe, allowing downtown visitors to make better use of existing parking supplies before deciding if downtown needs yet another garage.
A new downtown Plan: Last commissioned in 1999, given the progress in the intervening years, so much has changed to make the document outdated. Given the need to address parking, signage, and greenspace issues holistically, a new master plan is in order to guide future development. BTW, downtown and the City should only bother with this if they are committed to following the plan as a blueprint for downtown, not a glossy coffee-table book to
Similarly, when will DT have enough critical mass that tax payers don't have to subsidize the largescale developments?
Ever?
Hell, all over (DTs, suburbs, exurbs) these days it seems like large scale developments just don't happen without tax subsidies.
Ever?
Hell, all over (DTs, suburbs, exurbs) these days it seems like large scale developments just don't happen without tax subsidies.
My sociology professor who studied at Harvard BA-PHD still thinks St. Louis is in the late 80s or early 90's. We aren't. I constantly have to disagree with him because I am the only City resident in the urban sociology class and I don't want him to contaminate the minds of the youth with his ignorance. He still has insight however he questions reurbanization and believes that sprawl will continue. It seems even the most educated will formulate incorrect conclusions when they do not have enough experience with what they are analyzing. If people had more experience with the City they would see the progress. This experience begins with actually visiting it besides for an enclosed event like sports.
With regards to when our population can support retail and entertainment, given we are seeing a new theater Downtown which isn't showing porn, I would say the market for such services has arrived. No doubt it will be increasing in the years to come as more lofts become available. Also, as stated before, residents from surrounding City neighborhoods do and will support Downtown.
With regards to when our population can support retail and entertainment, given we are seeing a new theater Downtown which isn't showing porn, I would say the market for such services has arrived. No doubt it will be increasing in the years to come as more lofts become available. Also, as stated before, residents from surrounding City neighborhoods do and will support Downtown.
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JMedwick wrote:4. Given the current nature of 6th street, even with the proposed reuse of ground floor retail spaces such as the former Woolworth's space, I am not sure I like 6th street as a retail street. Most of the surrounding buildings have their loading areas facing onto 6th, thereby making it one of the most dead streets downtown (Walnut being another contender for this title).
Good points on 6th Street. Sounds like the city has had plans for 6th for quite a while - here's a Business Journal article from 1997:
Friday, July 4, 1997
One small step for Sixth St.; one giant leap for downtownSt. Louis Business Journal - by Linda Tucci
The city has tapped $358,400 in federal highway money and matching city funds to enhance the area along Sixth Street linking the Trans World Dome and convention center to Kiener Plaza and Busch Stadium.
The nine-block corridor -- dubbed the Sixth Street Entertainment District during the Bosley administration-- has long been seen as a means to enliven the heart of downtown and capitalize on the attractions that anchor Sixth Street. The stumbling block has been money.
Now the city of St. Louis and Missouri Transportation Commission have executed an agreement to use $286,720 in Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act (ISTEA) enhancement funds and $71,680 in city funds to make pedestrian improvements along Sixth Street.
"Urban entertainment is a key way to revitalize downtown, and this project is really a part of that bigger perspective. It is fairly straightforward from Kiener back to the convention center with multiple smaller restaurants. It seemed sensible to start here. We want to see Sixth Street as a small but initial positive step toward long-term downtown planning," said John Hoal, director of urban design for St. Louis Development Corp.
The goal of the project is to provide an attractive pedestrian environment that will link the three MetroLink stations and bus lines serving the area as well as enable existing businesses to flourish. In addition to St. Louis Centre, the Sixth Street strip boasts a number of restaurants, including Joseph's Italian Cafe, Saint Louis Bread Company, Friday's, Charlie Gitto's, Flacos Tacos on the street as well as Kemoll's and Piccolo's inside One Metropolitan Square.
Link
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^ Suggest a field trip downtown. Sounds to me like your professor just doesn't want to update his lectures from 1991. Is he anti-urban or just lazy?