Greetings All:

I'm seriously considering going back to school for an urban planning masters. I was wondering if anyone on this forum knew any planners that I could talk to. I know Rollin Stanley just left St. Louis but I plan to track down his successors and invite him to lunch - does anyone know any other planners? Clayton? St. Chuck? I know Kirkwood has one. ...



I'm serious about this so any advice would be greatly appreciated.



If it helps at all - these are my primary concerns right now:

1. how relevant/useful is a law degree in the planning field. Common sense tells me that it would be very useful - but I'm guessing here.



2. can i support myself with a planning job? how hard is it to land a planning job. what are the opportunities in the private sector.





like i said - any help would be greatly appreciated. Now I'm off to start reading the death and life of great american cities. Its about time I read it. ...

thank u. i knew about the slu program (and i've contacted them) but it never dawnws on me to contact the apa). seriously thanks

markofucity wrote:1. how relevant/useful is a law degree in the planning field. Common sense tells me that it would be very useful - but I'm guessing here...

A law degree is useful for just about anything, but you have to ask yourself what you really want to do, and, unless you have a wealthy relative that is going to foot the bill, how you are going to pay for it. You aren't going to pay for a law degree by being an urban planner. There are a lot of ways you could practice law or provide legal consulting services in fields related to urban planning, but I suspect you won't find those as interesting as being an actual urban planner.

you're getting at my basic dillema. I wonder if urban planning can pay off my loans ... thats my main question .. i hope to ask a few planners just that.

ACSP



Association of Collegiate Schools of Planning

http://www.acsp.org/





Guide to Undergraduate and Graduate Education in Urban and Regional Planning

http://www.acsp.org/Guide/ACSP_13th_Edition_Guide.pdf



Please take note that your best choices should be accredited schools of which SLU is not; an accredited degree is higher valued than an unaccredited degree and allows you to take the AICP exam sooner. Going to SLU does set you up for local networking, but most planners in the area attended planning schools all over the country with the highest proportions in the northeast (MIT, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Rutgers) and midwest (Illinois, Wisconsin, Kansas, Iowa, Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio).



The ACSP Guide is always the best source of programs, and do not buy the Planetizen Guide to Graduate Programs because it's a rip off. Planetizen has a skewed ranking system towards school reputation and prestige of alumni when you are looking for resources, research, job market, university outreach (Texas planning program has outreach to Latin America), connection between programs (Texas is in the School of Architecture, it interacts with Architecture, Engineering, Public Policy whereas Rutgers is imbedded in the School of Public Policy and Planning and other planning programs in School of Geography.



Based on what schools or colleges the programs are situated in, what part of the planning field do you want to work in?

If policy, go to a school with a large Ph.D program

If design, go to a school with a good School of Architecture

If Transportation, go to a school with regular cross-classes between planners and engineers (UT!) or programs specifically designed for transportation (Iowa, MIT)

If Environment, go to a school with cross-classes with the sciences or like Wisconsin has developed Ecology as a specialization when most schools have environmental planning.

First a question, do you already have a law degree and are looking to add a planning degree? Or, are you looking to add both?



I am a graduate of the SLU program, and while SMSPlanstu is correct that the program is not accredited, it is on a path to accreditation having recently graduated enough students to fulfill one of the major requirements for accreditation.



If you plan on staying in St. Louis, SLU is a very good option because it is the only planning program in the area (Wash U has architecture, SIUE and UMSL have public policy, urban affairs and public administration I think), plus you can't beat the local networking.



If you are not staying in St. Louis or have the ability to move for school it is hard to argue against checking out the other more established planning programs SMSPlanstu mentions. That said I know a few SLU grads who have found work in other areas of the country at planning firms and in government. And, everyone I know got a job within a few months of graduation if not before.



Very few SLU grads have gone on to jobs in local government planning departments, but I think that has more to do with the interests of the students than their abilities to land this type of job. I think SLU's integrated approach combining both planning and real estate attracts a diverse group of students interested in a wider variety of fields.



Several graduates work at consulting companies in planning and economic development namely Development Strategies and PGAV here in town. Others work for economic development agencies including SLDC and RCGA. Others work for commercial real estate companies, developers, banks and non-profits. There are a lot of options, so no you don't have to be willing to work in government.



Also if you have a law and planning degree I think that would be very valuable, and could allow you to work in areas that are more interesting to you rather than just having a law degree. I will disagree with jlblues' statement...

but I suspect you won't find those as interesting as being an actual urban planner.

I am not a lawyer, but there are lawyers deeply involved in every major development and most major planning decisions in our region. So I think if you are interested in both law and planning you might find being lawyer in this field much more interesting than being an actual urban planner. In this case SLU's law school and its planning program might be a great fit.

MattonArsenal wrote:Also if you have a law and planning degree I think that would be very valuable, and could allow you to work in areas that are more interesting to you rather than just having a law degree. I will disagree with jlblues' statement...

but I suspect you won't find those as interesting as being an actual urban planner.

I am not a lawyer, but there are lawyers deeply involved in every major development and most major planning decisions in our region. So I think if you are interested in both law and planning you might find being lawyer in this field much more interesting than being an actual urban planner.

Yes, attorneys are deeply involved in real estate development and urban planning, but that involvement is in reviewing titles, contracts, and transactions, researching tax, land use, environmental, etc., implications and precedents, preparing development agreements, negotiating, drafting various forms of communication, etc. But, do they come up with creative solutions to urban planning or real estate development issues? Generally, no. There is always someone else telling them what to do, i.e. "This is what I want and need, now go do it." A very rare few might get to set policy and draft new legislation. Some might say finding and exploiting various legal and tax code loopholes is "creative", but personally, I believe I would find such a career limiting, or less than intellectually stimulating; maybe that's just me.



This is what you need to think about: What is the relative weight of the value you place on the number of opportunities you will have to accumulate wealth, versus the value you give to the number of opportunities you will have to utilize your intellect and creativity within your career to satisfy your desire to preserve/restore/improve the urban environment, i.e. "make a difference".

Thanks everyone for all the help ... I've been absent for a few days and it looks as if I need to clarify a few things.



1) yes I already have a law degree.

2) I'm perfectly willing to make less money if the job satisfies (I'm currently working in just such a job - but in the legal field), but I do need to stay within the confines of reality. I have loan payments to make and I don't have a trust fund - so like it or not money is a factor.



I've thought about whether I could approach this field without the masters. I don't believe there is a hard and fast answer to that query - but in general I want to be a planer first and a lawyer second. As one of the above mentioned - one could be a lawyer working in real estate on planning issues, but I don't believe they will do any actual planning. I actually used to represent Baron McCormick and I came across quite a few of those attorneys. They were essentially real estate attorneys. Like the commentator above mentioned - they received the plans from others and then worked upon the contracts. That's NOT what I want to do. But I strongly believe that having a legal background will give me a greater understanding of potential issues and so forth - In short I think it will make me a better planner.



I'm torn on SLU. It would definitely be easier to stay in town. I have a house and I'm settled. But SLU isn't exactly cheap either. If it was a sate school and I could attend at reduced rates I would go in a heartbeat - but if they're going to charge me as much as Berkeley then I'll go to Berkeley. .. I highly doubt I would qualify for any assistance. Actually - I'm not sure if they have scholarships available. I should look into that. ...



anyway - I sincerely appreciate the help - and I would love to hear more. Thanks again.

Maybe you could apply for an assistantship Might not work if you have a mortgage or family, but for 20 hours of work a week you get free tuition plus about $1,000 per month and health insurance. They're pretty competitive so you'd want to apply early.

The other option is to work as an attorney in a field related to real estate and planning for 5 to 10 years, even though you don't enjoy it, and gain valuable experience, contacts, and capital, while completing your planning degree. Then start your own consulting firm, and you can do whatever you want. Well, at least you can do a mix of the things that you don't enjoy, but generate cash flow, and the things you do enjoy, that don't. This way, it won't matter as much that the SLU program isn't accredited, since you are primarily just using the knowledge.



Frankly, if you want to stay in St. Louis, do actual planning, and generate enough income to make your mortgage payments and feed your family, this might be your only option.



Is going to school full time an option for you?