Delmar Loop Trolley

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First unread post1570 posts
Looking through some old posts. A funny one (in a tragic way) from summer 2010. What a long strange trip it's been.
quincunx wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:43 am
Groundbreaking is expected in late 2011, and the trolleys will be rolling by fall 2012, said Joe Edwards ...
STLToday article
wabash wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 10:48 am
Was hoping they would have it open by MDW to draw interest and ridership from the holiday weekend.

Even with school out, this time of year has so much Loop and Forest Park foot traffic that this is the time to have it up and running - even at a reduced schedule.
What's MDW?
Memorial Day Weekend.
"The visionaries of the Loop Trolley hope that the 2.2-mile loop from University City Hall to the Missouri History Museum is just the beginning. Expansion routes could include a loop around Forest Park or an extension eastward on Delmar Boulevard through the Central West End to Grand Boulevard."

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/mailba ... eb13b.html
You can put me in the extremely skeptical group. No way the Feds ever fund extensions after the boondoggle of the trolley.
Can't help but wonder if Edwards had not been so insistent on vintage cars verses modern if this would not have had a better outcome.
Agree. As much as I love the vintage stuff (I have ridden one of the Seattle cars we bought), modern cars would have laid a far better foundation. Still glad to see it go in though.
framer wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:15 pm
"The visionaries of the Loop Trolley hope that the 2.2-mile loop from University City Hall to the Missouri History Museum is just the beginning. Expansion routes could include a loop around Forest Park or an extension eastward on Delmar Boulevard through the Central West End to Grand Boulevard."

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/mailba ... eb13b.html
I see the vision two fold as well as agree with Pat, forget about Fed funds and you might as well as write off State and greater regional as well. However, I think it still can be expanded but in two ways.

1) Loop trolley extension as a historic trolley, tourist driven. This could happen in the park and with funding to be spear headed by Forest Park Forever foundation for tracks, wires, a car or two and maybe a operational aspect/contribution from the museum district taxes. The bigger question, a loop within the park itself touching on Zoo/Science Center or a grander vision, more costly vision, that crosses I-64 to incorporate the old Forest Park Hospital site/zoo expansion site (theme hotel/resort, offices, structured parking is what I think would be a good use of the site), make a left to go eastward past Highlands/Forest Park Community College to the Science Center with small turn around loop.

2) The second expansion down Delmar east and into CWE is a modern streetcar line that the city builds and piggybacks on some of the existing loop infrastructure to run the streetcar to the Forest Park metrolink station. I believe city residents have passed a sales tax increase to support transit. Just a straight up, simple low floor streetcar line that connects Forest Park metrolink station via Delmar & Euclid or Boyle to either of the respective metrolink station. This is a straight up development tool to get more development along the Delmar Divide into BJC/Wash U/CORTEX job centers.

I guess my point is why not both? Would require being creative on financing and much much more local.
I’d love to see the heritage cars taken all the way down the Euclid @ Delmar. With the current reliance on TDD for funding I don’t see Forest Park as a real possibility. But they need to get phase I open and running and ridden by people before phase II comes into play.
I'm not sure if it is feasible due to the raised platforms they built on Delmar but vintage and modern can coexist. SF does it in a limited way although they have to install ADA ramps every few stops that may make cross compatibility difficult. Gauge and voltage would be fine it would be width and height...
tztag wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:46 pm
I'm not sure if it is feasible due to the raised platforms they built on Delmar but vintage and modern can coexist. SF does it in a limited way although they have to install ADA ramps every few stops that may make cross compatibility difficult. Gauge and voltage would be fine it would be width and height...
As far as streetcar platforms are concerned, the platforms for the Loop Trolley are all of the "low" 7 inch height variety. High streetcar platforms are 14 inches. However, even though the platforms along Delmar are "low", modern streetcars might still not be able to get past them as the platforms were built closer to the curb than is standard anywhere else. In fact, I've not been able to find a single other system in the country that has platforms built as close to the rail as the ones built here for the Loop Trolley.
Went to the History Museum yesterday and saw the very good St. Louis panoramas and the Muny 100 year anniversary exhibits. Coming out of the parking lot, I caught a view of the Trolley. It had to stop briefly for a car that crossed the tracks coming out of the parking lot and didn't quite get out of the way while waiting for the light to change. No big deal. Touch for video.

Image[url=https://flic.kr/p/L27qAb]
West End Word - Loop Trolley Opening Delayed Yet Again; July Now Targeted

http://www.westendword.com/Articles-New ... geted.html
Just heard on Fox2 that the trolley is delayed again. Looking at August or September now...
GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:24 pm
Just heard on Fox2 that the trolley is delayed again. Looking at August or September now...
https://fox2now.com/2018/07/09/loop-tro ... ext-month/
Ticket kiosks are installed waiting to go online. Still, every bit of signage, every safety reflector, and every section of track along the 2.2-mile fixed-route electric trolley system from University City to Forest Park has to get approval from both the Missouri Department of Transportation and the Federal Transportation Administration (FTA).

Doing so has taken longer than the trolley’s developers ever anticipated, even with construction on the $51-million project essentially completed more than a year and a half ago.
So not delayed... yet. But there's a (probably pretty decent) chance they won't get approvals in time.

-RBB
I think if there was political will then the necessary approvals would have happened by now. This is a signature project for our region that has been in the works for many years. You can't tell me that normal governmental red tape is holding this thing up. Perhaps Joe Edwards or the trolley company have rubbed the right people the wrong way or it was just pure incompetence on their part. Can you imagine what would have happened if Metro Link had to sit idle for over a year after completion due to permits? Not one would have stood for that back then.
Not to excuse, but delays aren't uncommon.

The Cross County extension suffered delays and cost over runs.

Getting PTC going everywhere is long delayed.

Still waiting for 110 mph service STL-CHI

The new passenger cars for Amtrak didn't meet safety crash test specs and are delayed

Rochelle rail-car plant loses $352 million Amtrak contract to California
A Japanese rail-car maker with a manufacturing plant in Rochelle has lost a lucrative contract to build high-speed Amtrak passenger trains after years of safety problems, technical failures and layoffs.
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/- ... -95136439/
When are we going to see how much money and where it is coming from to maintain the trolley long term?
I live on the ground with this Trolley as do my friends neighbors and persons that work in the neighborhood. I have been in the neighborhood since 1979. I knew Leon Strauss and his wife and I took the risk to buy a condo so that there would be more house lights on a than desolate boarded up Pershing. I am the quintessential example of the pioneer who moved from the county (Creve Coeur) and came back to the city. I am rarely seen nor heard and am of no reputation but in my opinion and I emphasize opinion the trolley was a jewel of an idea that is flawed; it is not a disaster but a mess. Just a quick query: where are the cars going to park that are being dislocated off Delmar? At street level many of us locals have for too numerous incidents to mention seen run overs of the cement borders by people cars buses etc. And to see the faces of the bus drivers maneuver the maze is priceless. An example: I have had two separate visitors and when they turn onto DeBaliviere going north from Forest Park Parkway they literally drove into the trolley corridor! One guest was livid and stated that there could be litigation if damage/an accident/occurred at that location. "Stupid drives? Not to worry this will all wash out! Progress is good! Everyone I know loves the plan!" It is none of that it comes down to slip/slop planning. The planning person(s) for this mess could not even plan light/sin age well enough at the Forest Park intersection to prevent/mitigate an obvious flaw. That oversight says much to me about the overall plan. There has been a lot of talk about the trolley planning, construction etc. but very little about ridership and projected ridership. And that's what all this trolley finally comes down to is ridership; it’s a trolley it moves paying people And instead of the trolley taking passengers on a brisk ride to dinner on the loop the trolley will be navigating the buses, lights, turns, cement curbs, pedestrians, cars and the stops and the stops and the stops and all the rest of it on narrow Delmar. My gut thinking is that one interminable stop and go trolley ride will be enough. Word of mouth/social media is powerful. I want to see the projected ridership numbers at least into 2020 and the details on the well spring of tourists or whomever that will financially support this trolley
After moving to the neighborhood by girlfriend drove onto the trolley tracks multiple times turning onto DeBaliviere from FPP, can't imagine she is the only one. I also would have to imagine that many of these curbs would need to be replaced annually because of runovers. Anytime a bus or firetruck turns onto the DeBaliviere from FPP with anybody waiting at the light it must run over the curb.
hebeters2 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:41 am
When are we going to see how much money and where it is coming from to maintain the trolley long term?

Just a quick query: where are the cars going to park that are being dislocated off Delmar?
The Loop Trolley Transportation Development District has a 1% sales tax that funds the Loop Trolley. It raised almost $800k in 2016. I don't have numbers for 2017 because the MO Dept of Revenue hasn't updated their sales/use tax numbers since last August. I wonder what their problem is.

Very few parking spots on Delmar were lost.
hebeters2 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:41 am
Just a quick query: where are the cars going to park that are being dislocated off Delmar?
maybe in one of the several surface lots, the parking garage, or a side street? yes, all 10 to 15 of them. i have never in my life had a problem finding parking within 3 blocks of the Loop.
urban_dilettante wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:06 pm
hebeters2 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:41 am
Just a quick query: where are the cars going to park that are being dislocated off Delmar?
maybe in one of the several surface lots, the parking garage, or a side street? yes, all 10 to 15 of them. i have never in my life had a problem finding parking within 3 blocks of the Loop.
Who wants to park 3 blocks off the Loop!?!?!?
[
stlien wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:51 pm
Who wants to park 3 blocks off the Loop!?!?!?
is this a joke?

--all the people that do, and then walk a whole 30 seconds (GASP!) through the tree-lined streets of Skinker-DeBalivier or U. City to get to Delmar

--people who have ever lived in/visited healthy, functional cities where people actually (GASP!) walk around

--people without the irrational, incredibly selfish expectation that they should get to park directly in front of their destination at all times, and that such a low-density place should be able to simultaneously support a healthy commercial presence with a minimal population and maintain an absurd level of parking infrastructure on a minimal tax base

--probably others
urban_dilettante wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:23 pm
is this a joke?
Yes.
stlien wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:11 am
urban_dilettante wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:23 pm
is this a joke?
Yes.
oh... :oops: