Predicting the next "Grove"

A catch-all forum for urban discussion. If it doesn't fit elsewhere, post here.

Which Neighborhood is the next Grove?

Gravois Park/Cherokee/BPW
33%
9
Benton Park/Marine Villa
11%
3
Downtown West
26%
7
Botanical Heights/Tiffany
4%
1
Old North/Hyde Park
7%
2
Bevo/Dutchtown
7%
2
Dogtown
11%
3

I thought about putting this in the 2018 predictions thread or the census thread but seems like it didn't quite make sense.

I am curious what people view as the next city neighborhood that could explode in growth over the next 5 or 6 years. I moved here about 7 years ago and I haven't seen a neighborhood change more than The Grove. From the building boom on Manchester to the house prices within the other streets. I actually tried to invest there 7 years ago because I thought it seemed like the best bet to explode, and it has. Wish I had bit the bullet sometimes and bought there. It feels like a street in Austin.

I know this is the million dollar question that every developer wants to know but I wanna know what you all think. So, which neighborhood is set to transform totally in the next decade and why?

I could only put 7 options so please comment as well if you feel I totally missed the mark. I tried to only include areas with a commercial corridor that would have a lot of potential and hoods that aren't already built-out (CWE, TGS, Downtown, Lafayette)
I won't go so far as to say it will be next, but I want to throw out that I have this sneaky positive feeling about Lafayette Ave—not in Lafayette Square, but across Jefferson in the Gate District.

Without much attention cool rehabs and unique residential infill keeps popping up along this street, and there's also this untapped room for retail. It's probably a ways off, but I can just picture that area being really cool.
To find your answer I would look at why the Grove exploded....

Main retail strip
central location
close to a major employer dedicated to improving the surrounding area.
Another point on the Grove, a business CID that worked towards improving the area and a housing stock that provided rehab opportunity.
What about South Broadway/Carondelet-Patch neighborhood?

I think there was an article in the RFT a few months ago where they specifically mentioned trying to be the next Grove
The cool thing about living in a half-empty City is that there are limitless vacant commercial strips to revitalize. I think Olive/Washington on the north edge of the CWE is on the cusp of becoming a destination again. Very different dynamics from the Grove, but hopefully it can carry on a little of the spirit from nearby Gaslight Square. Also, I think the commercial spaces along Pershing Avenue in DeBaliviere Place are woefully underutilized and could contribute to the neighborhood much more than they currently do. Especially considering the access to Metrolink blue AND red lines and the Loop Trolley. Why there isn’t a cute bakery or ice cream shop is beyond me (paging Clementine’s)...

Other districts that have great potential: Chippewa between Grand and Jefferson, Gravois Avenue (the entire length), Chiuteau’s Landing and North Riverfront.
southsidepride wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:51 am
What about South Broadway/Carondelet-Patch neighborhood?

I think there was an article in the RFT a few months ago where they specifically mentioned trying to be the next Grove
I was going to say the same thing and was wondering why South Broadway/Carondelet-Patch got left off the poll? That area was going to be my vote.
Grand Center & Midtown Alley - soooo much going for them, much more than The Grove actually. But they just haven't been able to coalesce the energy, activity and momentum and get over a hump of feeling somewhat desolate and disjointed.

I could also see Sarah between The Parkway and Lindell taking off as an eastern alternative to Euclid - particularly with the multi-family new construction momentum it has and Cortex Metrolink station going in.


As charming as Hyde Park, ONSL, Meramec, Chippewa, Patch/S. Broadway, etc.... are, I think for somewhere to get the momentum of The Grove it almost has to be in the Central Corridor. Lafayette's an interesting idea.
Downtown West has a chance to add another 200-250 residents once CPI/Monogram is done.
1815 Locust is a 3 story for sale now and Redbrick/Blackline looked at it but said right now price is too high, they plan to re visit that building again soon.

also heard that someone is putting together plans for Butler Brothers, if that moves forward i think you'll see more commercial happening with Butler, CPI, Buell and possibly 1815 Locust adding about 1000 residents by 2020.
I'd really like to see the Landing become a thing again.
I see ONSTL and Hyde Park taking off briefly after the N/S opens. This is of course contingent on N/S opting to a route along Florissant Ave. The momentum is there but light rail access to downtown changes EVERYTHING. The NGA site also will help this area in particular just by separating it from the rest of North St. Louis. It makes a buildout way more feasible.

I long for the day when Florissant Ave is lined with transit oriented development.
I think McKinley Heights and Fox Park are ready. Maybe center that around a road diet on Jefferson. I think that will happen before Benton Park can reach its potential.
I used to think that Dogtown would be it, but the NIMBYs have pretty much shut down the neighborhood.
Agree with The Landing. It has all the fundamentals - retail, office, culture/history, cool location next to the Arch and river, even has a regional draw in Lumiere (love it or hate it). What it doesn't have is probably its biggest asset - high crime. ONSTL, Hyde Park, even Fox Park will always battle the perception related to crime. Aside from car break-ins, Landing doesn't have much.

The isolation due to the highway certainly doesn't help, but it's not really a neighborhood that needs full gentirifcation, more just re-positioning and it could see momentum pick up quick. And there's physical room for growth along the north riverfront.

Dogtown will see a nice bump when Hibernia and Fields Foods goes up. I think you'll quickly see a lot of the vacant retail storefronts start filling up. And let's be honest - in a few years St. James the Greater will probably be a candidate for a residential conversion.
jbacott wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:01 pm
Agree with The Landing. It has all the fundamentals - retail, office, culture/history, cool location next to the Arch and river, even has a regional draw in Lumiere (love it or hate it). What it doesn't have is probably its biggest asset - high crime. ONSTL, Hyde Park, even Fox Park will always battle the perception related to crime. Aside from car break-ins, Landing doesn't have much.

The isolation due to the highway certainly doesn't help, but it's not really a neighborhood that needs full gentirifcation, more just re-positioning and it could see momentum pick up quick. And there's physical room for growth along the north riverfront.

Dogtown will see a nice bump when Hibernia and Fields Foods goes up. I think you'll quickly see a lot of the vacant retail storefronts start filling up. And let's be honest - in a few years St. James the Greater will probably be a candidate for a residential conversion.
The Landing is a candidate but I don't think that happens for years. I just think there are too many issues and one residential tower won't do it. But if/when it does happen I think it will be extremely rapid; similar to what has happened around "The Gulch" in Nashville.

The question is will it take the removal of I-44 to happen or will a Landing resurgence cause I-44 to be removed?
For the same reason Fox Park was mentioned, I think Cherokee is on the verge already... and when the South Metrolink makes it to Jefferson/Cherokee, it'll be just another reason for that area to flourish.
framer wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:50 pm
I used to think that Dogtown would be it, but the NIMBYs have pretty much shut down the neighborhood.
This may not be the right place for it, but as someone who has Dogtown near the top of my list for moving, can you clarify?
I think downtown west/midtown alley corridor will become the next active area for development, its being primed for an infill boom with all the proposals now.

The riverfront is our greatest non activated asset, so itl be cool to see how development fairs there. I'd like to see the area between soulard and the ballpark take off but I think that's a ways off.

Crondalet would be awesome but it's definitely isolated in a way that other emerging districts are not


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jstriebel wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:11 pm
framer wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:50 pm
I used to think that Dogtown would be it, but the NIMBYs have pretty much shut down the neighborhood.
This may not be the right place for it, but as someone who has Dogtown near the top of my list for moving, can you clarify?
A few years ago, there was infill popping up all over the neighborhood. Seems everyone was talking about it being the next hot spot. But larger-scale developments along Clayton Ave. have faced heavy neighborhood resistance, and since then all of the buzz seems to have died down. Meanwhile, development activity has moved elsewhere.

That's my perspective, but I don't live in the 'hood, so I could be mistaken.
framer wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:12 pm
jstriebel wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:11 pm
framer wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:50 pm
I used to think that Dogtown would be it, but the NIMBYs have pretty much shut down the neighborhood.
This may not be the right place for it, but as someone who has Dogtown near the top of my list for moving, can you clarify?
A few years ago, there was infill popping up all over the neighborhood. Seems everyone was talking about it being the next hot spot. But larger-scale developments along Clayton Ave. have faced heavy neighborhood resistance, and since then all of the buzz seems to have died down. Meanwhile, development activity has moved elsewhere.

That's my perspective, but I don't live in the 'hood, so I could be mistaken.
Despite some kicking and screaming, the big multi-family behind Seamus on Clayton is moving forward. Fields Foods was announced as the retail tenant, which is a big addition to the neighborhood. There has been other developments on a smaller scale including some multi-family further down Clayton Rd towards Hi-Pointe and infill housing/rehabs throughout. I don't see Dogtown exploding and becoming the next big urban neighborhood b/c it's far too concentrated with single-family residential, but it will continue to be a steady asset to the city w/ a small, but walkable commercial area.
When talking about Dogtown I'm shocked that nobody is discussing Manchester Rd between McCausland and Hampton. Outside of the new building with the Fields Foods I'm not sure what else there is to do in the Clayton/Tamm intersection area.

To the west on Manchester Road you've got Maplewood doing a darn good job. All that remains are the buildings around Yale Ave. To thw east you obviously have the Grove. Manchester Road from Kingshighway to the city limits is woeful at best.
I think each neighborhood listed has a true potential to have a bit of a grove aspect to it but the one i think that be closest is Cherokee St. What makes Cherokee St so unique and standout more is that its not by any real epicenter of employment. I hope that all these neighborhoods can experience growth.
I drove through Dogtown tonight and (other than Manchester Road) I guess I'm missing the empty houses, shuttered businesses plus vacant lots that would allow for explosive growth. Seems like a good solid neighborhood that other than the Clayton and Graham lot that's getting the Fields Foods building has little window to change.

Am I stupid? What am I missing?
dweebe wrote:
southsidepride wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:51 am
What about South Broadway/Carondelet-Patch neighborhood?

I think there was an article in the RFT a few months ago where they specifically mentioned trying to be the next Grove
I was going to say the same thing and was wondering why South Broadway/Carondelet-Patch got left off the poll? That area was going to be my vote.
I would vote South Broadway-Carondelet-Patch as well.
leeharveyawesome wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:49 am
dweebe wrote:
southsidepride wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:51 am
What about South Broadway/Carondelet-Patch neighborhood?

I think there was an article in the RFT a few months ago where they specifically mentioned trying to be the next Grove
I was going to say the same thing and was wondering why South Broadway/Carondelet-Patch got left off the poll? That area was going to be my vote.
I would vote South Broadway-Carondelet-Patch as well.
I left The Patch off because of some of the reasons listed above earlier. I would LOVE to see this area boom but it is too far and isolated I feel like. I thought about adding the Landing. Still feel like the removal of the interstate will have to happen to get a lot of people to move there.

I think Downtown West and the Locust area of Midtown have the best chance to see that explosion of growth.

Having said that, I literally put my money on McKinley/Fox Park as the Metrolink could make that a very desirable area. Time will tell.