Downtown Residential Market Thriving

Renovations and new residential construction in downtown St. Louis, Washington Avenue, the Old Post Office, etc.
First unread post502 posts
urban_dilettante wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:17 pm
bprop wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:32 pm

So millions of people see some construction by the stadium on TV and conclude that St. Louis is a city on the rise? I suppose that happened when Ballpark Village was being constructed as well?

Sorry, but the rose colored glasses must have been handed out by the gross recently.
:roll:

oh, give me a break. apparently a bunch of sh*t-colored glasses have been handed out too. seeing development does, indeed, color perception. Ballpark Village so far is a glorified theme park/bar mall, which is why nobody's gotten excited about it except baseball fanatics. a new residential tower + class A office building will be a slightly bigger deal.
:roll: :roll: The assertion is that millions of TV viewers are going to have their perceptions of the city colored more by construction of a residential and office building than they were by construction of a retail/entertainment theme park. That casual viewers are going to come away from watching a game thinking St. Louis is on the rise...and that will somehow translate to real-world significance.

Come on; you simply can't be serious.

I would be just as misguided saying that a completely dark AT&T tower behind the stadium is going to tarnish TV viewers' perceptions of St. Louis. It won't do anything of the sort.

The difference is, we know which is reality. This is a long discussion for another thread, but I'm just going to say it: outside a small section of the central corridor, the City is rotting from within. Momentum from the previous decade has evaporated and some of the City's most significant hurdles - ever - are ahead. TV audiences aren't going to be fooled. Pretending that one heavily subsidized ornament or another is the "spark" that's going to all of a sudden ignite change is wearing blinders.
^ yikes, the City definitely has its challenges but it also has a lot going for it beyond a small section of the Central Corridor. Seems hard to deny many of our city's neighborhoods are seeing increasing investments while acknowledging many others, mostly north of Delmar, are not.
And the award for pessimist of the year goes to... bprop!
framer wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:42 pm
And the award for pessimist of the year goes to... bprop!
Although pessimistic, they provide really honest realities of the city. Is the city's future as bleak as they describe? I wouldn't say so, but I would definitely agree that the city is at a low point. I believe we are at rock bottom.
framer wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:42 pm
And the award for pessimist of the year goes to... bprop!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I've seen more "hopefully this will be the spark that..." and "maybe project X will ignite momentum in.." or "Hopefully Z will give the critical mass that...." go unfulfilled so many times this forum that I know better than to get excited by them. Crime is truly coloring perceptions not just of North City but downtown and elsewhere. Infrastructure is a mess. Bureacuracy is stifling. FInances are not doing well.The transit system is collapsing under crime and infighting. There is a vacuum of leadership (Silent Lyda ain't it). We collectively get fooled again and again by subsidized mega-projects.

I'm a realist. If that doesn't play well with perpetual, unrequited optimism, I can accept that.
Chalupas54 wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:03 am
framer wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:42 pm
And the award for pessimist of the year goes to... bprop!
Although pessimistic, they provide really honest realities of the city. Is the city's future as bleak as they describe? I wouldn't say so, but I would definitely agree that the city is at a low point. I believe we are at rock bottom.
That's my fear - I started authoring a new thread about this very subject but it's not fully baked yet. In short, does the City need to hit rock bottom? I think we do. But are we there? I don't think so. It's not in complete collapse but the powers that be are desperately trying to control the fall by throwing everything possible at it. I think there needs to be a cratering or bottoming out as the catalyst to help cast off the old baggage, bring in true leadership, and create a fresh start.

The City hasn't gone though the painful trauma of complete collapse. It's now trying to stop individual bleeding from a thousand cuts.
bprop wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:10 am
Chalupas54 wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:03 am
framer wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:42 pm
And the award for pessimist of the year goes to... bprop!
Although pessimistic, they provide really honest realities of the city. Is the city's future as bleak as they describe? I wouldn't say so, but I would definitely agree that the city is at a low point. I believe we are at rock bottom.
That's my fear - I started authoring a new thread about this very subject but it's not fully baked yet. In short, does the City need to hit rock bottom? I think we do. But are we there? I don't think so. It's not in complete collapse but the powers that be are desperately trying to control the fall by throwing everything possible at it. I think there needs to be a cratering or bottoming out as the catalyst to help cast off the old baggage, bring in true leadership, and create a fresh start.

The City hasn't gone though the painful trauma of complete collapse. It's now trying to stop individual bleeding from a thousand cuts.
As sad as the consequences of it happening I think a bankruptcy would probably be in the cities best interest long term. If we have a recession even similar to 2008 I could see that happening. Central/South city are doing fine unfortunately north city has completely dropped from the table. It's a completely different city up there that BoA and the mayor don't care about
Yeah, bankruptcy is a great idea. You kiddin' me?

Bprop, please get that thread going asap (which I think is a great idea for an interesting dialogue). Because this one's getting completely highjacked.
That's an interesting subject. Are we at a low point or even rock bottom?

I think by measurables, it'd be hard to refute that. Population keeps declining. Crime may not be at a historical high, but it's very high, especially compared to peer cities. I'm not sure where poverty ranks, but we're not in good shape, and half of our city is in particularly bad shape while the other half only thrives in pockets and relatively speaking. We don't look very good on paper.

On the other hand, if you evaluate trends and processes, you can argue against that. Crime is a soaring outlier, but a lot of our negative measurables have slowed in pace. We're trending towards smarter development, whether that's urban form or tax hand outs (that is a very slow, recent, and inconsistent trend, however). We're tearing down less buildings and rehabbing more. Schools, as hard as it is to believe may be slowing their decline and even showing turn around. We're starting to elect more progressive representatives and put in place more progressive policies (even if the state undermines them as much as possible). We still aren't great at making or executing plans, but these policies are all improving.

So is it rock bottom? I don't know. But if it is, I think we're hitting it at a higher point than we might have been expected to 15 years ago.
Kudos to posters like Bprop. The city is fugging mess, almost a laughingstock. I travel weekly around the country on biz, and it never fails with the one question I get probably every other trip:

"What is going on in STL?"

People read things and they ain't good. And electing politicians like Lyda and Slay does nothing. We need bold leadership.

Political correctness also hinders policy makers from focusing on real issues.

Bankruptcy will happen unless the city privatizes the airport. If this happens and the city gets its hands on the cash they think they can get, they should all bow to Rhonda Hamm-Nuebregge...she's one of the few leaders in STL who gets sh*t done.
bprop is right. The city is a disaster right now.


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wabash wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:22 am
Bprop, please get that thread going asap (which I think is a great idea for an interesting dialogue). Because this one's getting completely highjacked.
Done.
bprop wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:08 pm

:roll: :roll: The assertion is that millions of TV viewers are going to have their perceptions of the city colored more by construction of a residential and office building than they were by construction of a retail/entertainment theme park.
that was YOUR assertion, not mine. i simply said that when people see development they think progress, and skyscrapers are more impressive than sports bars surrounded by parking lots. yes, some TV viewers would have their perceptions changed by a skyscraper going up next to Busch. others wouldn't. more viewers would be impressed by multiple skyscrapers going up in the background. some wouldn't be. arbitrarily quantifying it to suit your pessimistic perspective is... arbitrary.
whitherSTL wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:26 am
Kudos to posters like Bprop. The city is fugging mess, almost a laughingstock. I travel weekly around the country on biz, and it never fails with the one question I get probably every other trip:

"What is going on in STL?"

People read things and they ain't good. And electing politicians like Lyda and Slay does nothing. We need bold leadership.

Political correctness also hinders policy makers from focusing on real issues.

Bankruptcy will happen unless the city privatizes the airport. If this happens and the city gets its hands on the cash they think they can get, they should all bow to Rhonda Hamm-Nuebregge...she's one of the few leaders in STL who gets sh*t done.
Political correctness?

I think it's incompetence.
urban_dilettante wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:27 pm
bprop wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:08 pm

:roll: :roll: The assertion is that millions of TV viewers are going to have their perceptions of the city colored more by construction of a residential and office building than they were by construction of a retail/entertainment theme park.
that was YOUR assertion, not mine.
Sorry it was misleading; I wasn't quoting you but rather a combination of previous posts.
Seems this week has been a week of verbal and physical confirmations that important projects are still on track. (Jefferson Arms, Locust, BPV) Not sure we can say the same thing with many of the proposed hotels.


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^ Will be interesting to hear news on whether the latest potential Chemical Building redevelopment moved ahead.

As for hotels, I've heard through rumor mill that the International Shoe plans to get underway in fall and the Gills' Union Trust project looks poised to go soon. So that could be three (including he Lasalle) under construction by end of year.

The Jefferson Arms hotel component looks like maybe 2019 per the recent article. The Municipal Courts announcement was a little more recent than the others so I assume it will take some time while the Shell Building isn't really a true proposal as of yet. The one that seems the quietest is the new construction proposal by Union Station.., maybe it was contingent on the stadium moving ahead..
Let's just hope all these projects get their financing finalized before the Historic Tax Credits are killed by the Missouri legislature.
I think work has already begun on the Gills' building. There is construction fencing around part of the building and BSI trucks on the adjacent lot.
What's the latest downtown population estimate? I've seen 18K a while back for 'Greater Downtown' but it wasn't clear on the definition.
earthling wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:28 pm
What's the latest downtown population estimate? I've seen 18K a while back for 'Greater Downtown' but it wasn't clear on the definition.
Per DowntownSTL, 9560 for downtown core and 18,815 for greater downtown. 2017 annual report doesn't show the boundary but their 2015 report does to give you an idea of what those two regions include

2017 report

http://www.downtownstl.org/wp-content/u ... Report.pdf

2015 report

http://www.downtownstl.org/wp-content/u ... -Final.pdf
framer wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:29 am
Let's just hope all these projects get their financing finalized before the Historic Tax Credits are killed by the Missouri legislature.
Or at least at a minimum get Jeff Arms, Railway Exchange, Shell and Chemical historic tax credits awarded. That would make up the a big part of the remaining building stock downtown if not mistaken.. Also believe that all the above respected avenues for financing whether it be historic & brownfield tax credits, so on will need to happen for the development to go forward.
STLrainbow wrote:^ Will be interesting to hear news on whether the latest potential Chemical Building redevelopment moved ahead.

As for hotels, I've heard through rumor mill that the International Shoe plans to get underway in fall and the Gills' Union Trust project looks poised to go soon. So that could be three (including he Lasalle) under construction by end of year.

The Jefferson Arms hotel component looks like maybe 2019 per the recent article. The Municipal Courts announcement was a little more recent than the others so I assume it will take some time while the Shell Building isn't really a true proposal as of yet. The one that seems the quietest is the new construction proposal by Union Station.., maybe it was contingent on the stadium moving ahead..
There is a "Coming Soon" sign with a rendering at the site of the new construction next to Union Station. That may not mean much.


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There are many proposals for Downtown and elsewhere in St. Louis that are in major jeopardy due to the threat against the Missouri Historic Tax Credit. There is a scramble to try and get projects in the queue, but the cap has nearly been reached for FY2018 with many projects not on the list yet, and we're only 3 weeks in.

State Reps and Senators need to be called and emailed to save it.
JaredOpsal wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:55 am
There are many proposals for Downtown and elsewhere in St. Louis that are in major jeopardy due to the threat against the Missouri Historic Tax Credit. There is a scramble to try and get projects in the queue, but the cap has nearly been reach for FY2018 with many projects not on the list yet, and we're only 3 weeks in.

State Reps and Senators need to be called and emailed to save it.
This guy knows what he's talking about ^^^^^

I've got proformas on several historic buildings throughout the city we're working to develop and the State HTC is the only way there is even potential for profit. It would be a shame to see buildings like Chemical and Railway remain dormant. in our CBD. It would also be a shame to put the brakes on the rebound we're seeing in neighborhoods like Fox Park.