Downtown Residential Market Thriving

Renovations and new residential construction in downtown St. Louis, Washington Avenue, the Old Post Office, etc.
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moorlander wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 4:11 pm


What boundaries are you using for "downtown core?"
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moorlander wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 4:11 pm
dylank wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 3:52 pm
When does the residential/office report come out for downtown? Seems like it's usually released around this time. I'm interested to see their estimates for 2017. My estimates for downtown core population 2020 is upward of 5,000
What boundaries are you using for "downtown core?"

Downtown is already at 4300 per the 2015 report so 5000 should be attainable before then. Although Jeff Arms would be considered downtown west I believe based on Downtown STL as Tucker is the western boundary
joelo wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 5:24 pm
moorlander wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 4:11 pm
dylank wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 3:52 pm
When does the residential/office report come out for downtown? Seems like it's usually released around this time. I'm interested to see their estimates for 2017. My estimates for downtown core population 2020 is upward of 5,000
What boundaries are you using for "downtown core?"

Downtown is already at 4300 per the 2015 report so 5000 should be attainable before then. Although Jeff Arms would be considered downtown west I believe based on Downtown STL as Tucker is the western boundary
Yeah, unfortunately once you cross over that what, 6 or 8 lane highway, it turns into Downtown West.

When are we going to try to calm the Tucker traffic? At least a lane on each side.. or 2 on the southbound side. No one wants to cross that sh*t as a pedestrian south of Washington.
bwcrow1s wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 8:08 pm
When are we going to try to calm the Tucker traffic? At least a lane on each side.. or 2 on the southbound side. No one wants to cross that sh*t as a pedestrian south of Washington.
I always thought th way to do it was move north south metrolink route to tucker. Two lanes we be eliminated to accommodate it.
I once had a dream of a Metrolink line under Tucker heading to Brooklyn, Venice, Madison and Granite City. Not sure where I got that idea.
STLEnginerd wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 9:49 pm
bwcrow1s wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 8:08 pm
When are we going to try to calm the Tucker traffic? At least a lane on each side.. or 2 on the southbound side. No one wants to cross that sh*t as a pedestrian south of Washington.
I always thought th way to do it was move north south metrolink route to tucker. Two lanes we be eliminated to accommodate it.
Not a bad idea, it could continue down Chouteau or (IIRC the current plan is for the train to run down Chouteau to 14th?).

It makes sense for 14th since it's a Metro Station, but yeah... Tucker is much wider and could cut down the traffic divide between DT and DT West. We're obviously not going to see any expansion down Gravois instead since it's a MoDot thoroughfare. A shame because Gravois also needs some serious traffic calming.

I digress from the DT residential market thriving thread lol.
Tucker needs serious attention. A diet would help. Landscaped like Kingshighway in front of BJC would do wonders.

In the olden days, there use to be a farmers market in the median. I saw a picture somewhere....that would be awesome.
I've always thought it would be a good spot for a divided two way bike lane that runs through South City down Tucker and Gravois. Both roads could definitely use a diet.
Downtown STL posted their 2016 stats this month. Downtown population up 7.2% last year with occupancy rising to 95.4%. They even mention 1500 units in the next 5 years under "development" (Railway, Jeff Arms, Ballpark Village 2 and Monogram as the majority of that) and still believe demand will outpace supply. With occupancy rising you would think residential will continue to develop downtown

http://www.downtownstl.org/wp-content/u ... Report.pdf
This is why I feel downtown leadership is failing. Residential is obviously downtown's strong point, but there seems to be a lack of momentum and general consensus between the government and private sector that there needs to be major residential being built ALL the time. Also there needs to be way more variety and price points. The fact that no major TOD has been proposed at downtown Metrolink stations also shows a lack of vision. All these studies, but where is the RFPs for downtown like we are seeing now at Hanley station? I'm sure a developer would snap at a chance to build true TOD downtown if city had a framework.
I'm not going to disagree that downtown leadership is failing but residential is not going to save downtown. Offices won't either but it's extremely important for the region to rebuild and focus on moving offices downtown. Also, isn't almost every downtown proposal a TOD proposal? Or are you talking about a master plan? B/c H3 did one back in 2012, I think.
[quote=joelo post_id=284560 time=1499431304 user_id=9816]
Downtown STL posted their 2016 stats this month. Downtown population up 7.2% last year with occupancy rising to 95.4%. They even mention 1500 units in the next 5 years under "development" (Railway, Jeff Arms, Ballpark Village 2 and Monogram as the majority of that) and still believe demand will outpace supply. With occupancy rising you would think residential will continue to develop downtown

[url]http://www.downtownstl.org/wp-content/u ... Report.pdf[/url]
[/quote]

that's great to hear about the continued stregth of the downtown residential market. The way the media picks up every negative story most people probably think every downtown building is nearly empty. Why aren't these positive statistics shouted from the rooftops? With a little creativity and some press releases some great buzz can be created for the neighborhood.
Perception means everything. I've said it before, once the average Joe sees the new Ballpark Village tower going up, they'll start to get a new image of Downtown. People generally don't see all the new units coming on line, because rehabs just don't stand out the way new construction does.
framer wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:36 am
Perception means everything. I've said it before, once the average Joe sees the new Ballpark Village tower going up, they'll start to get a new image of Downtown. People generally don't see all the new units coming on line, because rehabs just don't stand out the way new construction does.
Framer pretty much nails it. Sorry Framer, couldn't help as pun was intended.

BPV II financed and rising out of the ground would have to go over well on financing for additional & less risky rehabs say Chemical building that has gone quiet again and our one of the seven hotel proposals that look good on paper but need that one more push that market demand is there to get financing secured.
dredger wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:24 pm

Framer pretty much nails it. Sorry Framer, couldn't help as pun was intended.
No problem; I love dredging up bad puns.
framer wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:36 am
Perception means everything. I've said it before, once the average Joe sees the new Ballpark Village tower going up, they'll start to get a new image of Downtown. People generally don't see all the new units coming on line, because rehabs just don't stand out the way new construction does.
Would you say that perception changed in the same way when Roberts Tower went up, i.e. did average Joes get a new image of downtown at that time?
bprop wrote:
framer wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:36 am
Perception means everything. I've said it before, once the average Joe sees the new Ballpark Village tower going up, they'll start to get a new image of Downtown. People generally don't see all the new units coming on line, because rehabs just don't stand out the way new construction does.
Would you say that perception changed in the same way when Roberts Tower went up, i.e. did average Joes get a new image of downtown at that time?
No, that building was moth balled for a few years due to the Great Recession and it's fairly secluded so it's hard to see u less you're right on opo square.
bprop wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:55 pm
Would you say that perception changed in the same way when Roberts Tower went up, i.e. did average Joes get a new image of downtown at that time?
i think it did until the Roberts empire fell apart and the building sat unfinished for a while. if several such high-profile projects were going up simultaneously--instead of 1 every 10 or 20 years--perceptions would certainly shift.
My take on the Roberts is that perceptions about downtown actually were pretty lofty a decade ago... or at least on the up. But for the great recession I think things probably would have continued to be good for downtown. Let's go back to 2007... Washington Avenue was still fresh, Busch 3 was brand new, Roberts Tower and Citygarden were under construction, people were moving in and old buildings getting rehabbed, we had more jobs and fuller office towers and even had some retail, ambitious plans with beautiful renderings were in the works. While downtown still had challenges, anything was possible. And then one day it wasn't like that anymore.

But unlike most elsewhere, where downtowns renewed their muscle as the economy began to return in the post-recession era, here the momentum and energy moved elsewhere in the city and downtown has fallen behind. Even though we've continued to reclaim once-vacant buildings and have added some population, the optimism and energy just isn't the same. If some of these key projects like BPV and Jefferson-Arms get underway I think that can begin to change perceptions once again for the better, but I continue to believe we won't get very far with real results until more businesses return.
I think that the Roberts Tower DID change perceptions. All of Post Office Square is now either finished or in development. I think the Roberts Tower really anchored the area, convincing many lenders and developers to go ahead with their own projects. But yeah, it's really tucked away out of sight of most casual Downtown visitors.

The new tower at Ballpark Village will have a much bigger impact, because it will be so much more visible. You'll see it from the Arch grounds, Kiener Plaza, the stadium, City Garden; not to mention driving past on the highways and in generic skyline shots. And of course it will be visible to millions of baseball viewers on TV.
At about the same time that Roberts was going up there was a story in the New York Times about St. Louis loft boom. Perceptions were almost sky high. That's about when Bottle District was new, and quite a lot of us believed it could happen. (Albeit scaled back a little from its soaring ambitions.) The recession really did a number on perceptions. More than it did on reality, even, I think. And Roberts sitting empty and unfinished was part of that too, probably. Which makes sense, since Roberts was a real estate empire. The recession doubtless hit them harder than most.
framer wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:47 pm
I think that the Roberts Tower DID change perceptions. All of Post Office Square is now either finished or in development. I think the Roberts Tower really anchored the area, convincing many lenders and developers to go ahead with their own projects. But yeah, it's really tucked away out of sight of most casual Downtown visitors.

The new tower at Ballpark Village will have a much bigger impact, because it will be so much more visible. You'll see it from the Arch grounds, Kiener Plaza, the stadium, City Garden; not to mention driving past on the highways and in generic skyline shots. And of course it will be visible to millions of baseball viewers on TV.
I believe this will have the biggest impact. Every game millions of people will see the buildings being constructed. Not just in STL but the surrounding areas that never go downtown. They will talk about it every game and show updates and latest renderings. When games are broadcast on ESPN, the whole country will see STL building these new high rises. That will have a nice impact to our perception of a dying city.
dmelsh wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:57 pm
framer wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:47 pm
I think that the Roberts Tower DID change perceptions. All of Post Office Square is now either finished or in development. I think the Roberts Tower really anchored the area, convincing many lenders and developers to go ahead with their own projects. But yeah, it's really tucked away out of sight of most casual Downtown visitors.

The new tower at Ballpark Village will have a much bigger impact, because it will be so much more visible. You'll see it from the Arch grounds, Kiener Plaza, the stadium, City Garden; not to mention driving past on the highways and in generic skyline shots. And of course it will be visible to millions of baseball viewers on TV.
I believe this will have the biggest impact. Every game millions of people will see the buildings being constructed. Not just in STL but the surrounding areas that never go downtown. They will talk about it every game and show updates and latest renderings. When games are broadcast on ESPN, the whole country will see STL building these new high rises. That will have a nice impact to our perception of a dying city.
So millions of people see some construction by the stadium on TV and conclude that St. Louis is a city on the rise? I suppose that happened when Ballpark Village was being constructed as well?

Sorry, but the rose colored glasses must have been handed out by the gross recently.
I can guarantee the comments will be "Why are they building that here! People get shot around here!" "St Louis is so dangerous they should know not build that here."

If this notion was true, we should have felt that sentiment about 2 years ago when there were at one point THIRTEEN tower cranes in the central corridor, 8 of them being in the CWE.
bprop wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:32 pm

So millions of people see some construction by the stadium on TV and conclude that St. Louis is a city on the rise? I suppose that happened when Ballpark Village was being constructed as well?

Sorry, but the rose colored glasses must have been handed out by the gross recently.
:roll:

oh, give me a break. apparently a bunch of sh*t-colored glasses have been handed out too. seeing development does, indeed, color perception. Ballpark Village so far is a glorified theme park/bar mall, which is why nobody's gotten excited about it except baseball fanatics. a new residential tower + class A office building will be a slightly bigger deal.

Chalupas54 wrote: If this notion was true, we should have felt that sentiment about 2 years ago when there were at one point THIRTEEN tower cranes in the central corridor, 8 of them being in the CWE.
the central corridor is killing it. how do you figure nobody's excited about those 13 tower cranes (and more to come)? no new development in the central corridor has struggled to rent/sell and real estate is hot, so i'd say people are excited. do you really expect your typical suburban basement dwelling STLToday commenter--who's devoted his/her life to hating the city on principle--to suddenly start cheering for it? St. Louis could be growing like Denver and it wouldn't matter to those trolls.

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