Good job KC!

Discuss new retail, dining, business, residential projects, or urban affairs in the areas of Missouri outside Metro St. Louis.
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Empty nesters moving downtown too...

"Strong demand for downtown living fuels growth"
http://fox4kc.com/2017/08/04/strong-dem ... ls-growth/
Three Light is supposed to begin soon then
chriss752 wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:46 pm
Three Light is supposed to begin soon then
May not break ground until next year according to this but others think it may happen when crane for Two Light isn't needed anymore.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -fast.html

And also...
“Since the One Light groundbreaking, the downtown population has grown from 21,000 to 26,000, and we are rapidly on our way to 33,000 by the end of 2019.
30K-35K is considered by urban planners as the critical mass point needed for a highly functioning downtown. That is, starts to draw broader range of retailers and also not dependent on events to sustain street life.
earthling wrote:
chriss752 wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:46 pm
Three Light is supposed to begin soon then
May not break ground until next year according to this but others think it may happen when crane for Two Light isn't needed anymore.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -fast.html

And also...
“Since the One Light groundbreaking, the downtown population has grown from 21,000 to 26,000, and we are rapidly on our way to 33,000 by the end of 2019.
30K-35K is considered by urban planners as the critical mass point needed for a highly functioning downtown. That is, starts to draw broader range of retailers and also not dependent on events to sustain street life.
What does Kansas City encompass as 'downtown' out of curiosity?


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^Greater Downtown is from River to 31st, State Line to about Hwy71. Central Downtown is generally considered River Market, CBD and Xroads (about 23rd St). Most of the population increase has been Central Downtown and up Gilham to 31st but there have a been a few projects on E/W sides of Greater Downtown.
earthling wrote:^Greater Downtown is from River to 31st, State Line to about Hwy71. Central Downtown is generally considered River Market, CBD and Xroads. Most of the population increase has been River Market to Xroads and up Gilham to 31st but there have a been a few projects on E/W sides of Greater Downtown.
Ohh. So this would be equivalent from the Arch to the CWE pretty much? I was thinking there were 33,000 people purely in the alphabet loop and I was like ?? Where would they all go???


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About equivalent to STL's N Grand maybe. Though the bulk of growth is downtown core to about KC's 25th Street and a stretch along Gilham.

This shows STL's 'Greater Downtown' definition, which is about 19K population now...
https://www.scribd.com/document/3174020 ... eport-2016
Downtown Kansas City, per the definition above, is right about seven square miles. To get an equivalent area in St. Louis you have to carry the DowntownSTL maps greater downtown area out Cass to Sarah and Park to Ewing. So . . . essentially including all of Midtown (Grand Center inclusive) out to the very edge of the West End. (And fair chunks of every neighborhood immediately north or south of downtown, for that matter.)

Just to carry this along I've done a little back of the napkin math. To the Greater Downtown I've assigned Downtown, Downtown West, Carr Square, Columbus Square, half of Laffayette Square, and Peadbody/Darst-Webbe, and two thirds of Lasalle Park. (The part outside the area being the skinny end of the triangle in this case.) Per the 2010 census that area had a population of slightly more than fifteen thousand. Okay. That makes sense. It feels superficially consistent with their estimates. If I add in the population growth they show for the core area over the period I end up with a final population of just under eighteen thousand. Which is . . . close.

To this we add Midtown, Grand Center, half of Tiffany and the Gate District, perhaps a quarter of Botanical Heights, and maybe a third of Jeff VanderLou. This is all very rough, but the area is actually still a couple percent smaller than I'd estimate the KC area to be. In 2010 the area I'm calling roughly equivalent to greater downtown KC had about twenty nine thousand people, more or less.

The original comparison, using arbitrary study definitions that have no relationship to one another, is kind of apples to oranges. This is really really rough, but it does lead me to believe that if you drew a box of the same size you'd at least have similar numbers and maybe slightly greater here. (Which makes sense. Population density is generally somewhat lower there. In the urban core it's probably pretty stinking close now, but maybe still not quite identical.)

If you want to see the area I'm including you can see the map I sketched out here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=11dhE4 ... sp=sharing

The population numbers are all just cribbed from Wiki, but that seems to match the City Hall numbers, and all they have is 2010 anyway.

They looked like this:

Nbr pop factor result
35 3721 1 3721
36 3940 1 3940
32 2078 .5 1039
33 2378 .5 1189
34 1299 .67 870
61 2774 1 2774
62 1869 1 1869

28 1037 .25 259
29 1060 .5 530
31 3456 .5 1728
37 5652 1 5652
59 5557 .33 1834
77 3562 1 3562

The neighborhood numbers are from the official map. The top block is the "Greater Downtown" of the study, more or less. The bottom block adds in enough area to make it match the KC study area, more or less.
In terms of recently (2016) completed and announced units, about 85% of units are in KC's downtown core (River Market, CBD Loop, Central Xroads), about 5000 of nearly 5900 units. Am not including Crown Center/Gilham projects. So about 7000 more pops in core if say 1.4 people avg/unit, 8000 if 1.6. And many units have been completed between 2010-2015.

This shows realistic approved/completed projects, excluding some distant proposals like Four/Five Light...
http://kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=20343

Would expect central Xroads along streetcar line to really take off next 5 years, still many open surface lots prime for development.
My downtown can beat up your downtown.
framer wrote:My downtown can beat up your downtown.
It is no secret to any of us that central KC is much more healthy than STL. However, STL does face a lot more complex issues than KC ever has or will. Given those setbacks, I think STL is doing quite well. Also of note, STL city's "urban fabric" is much more extensive than that in KC. We also have Clayton, Maplewood, UCITY, and many other areas that KC would have annexed but STL can't. Also, can a moderator change the name of this thread? "Kansas City Happenings" is a better title.


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Lets be realistic KC never had to deal with the fallout like St.Louis had and has, theres a reason why St.Louis was much more prosperous at the time. Alls I'm saying is KC has never had to face the obstacles that St.Louis has too and still fight through all the negative image and hatred from people in general. St.Louis carries majority of the states AA population and nearly half of Missouri's economy and with all the fallout St.Louis still manages to still have more fortunate 500 companies within its region its not a knock on KC yes KC is having a great deal of success a renaissance and kudos to them however lets be for real as much as we bash how far St.Louis has fallen its slowly rising and theres a lot of things that are happening here in positives Downtown KC was never like Downtown St.Louis and thats the truth Downtown St.Louis was left for dead. KC doesn't have a North Side. Anyways both cities are completely different and are on different paths to success. I just can't stand when folks in KC and on their forums always say St.Louis tries to act like its a eastern city a city can never act like anything its how St.Louis was influenced and still today i'll take St.Louis and all its ugliness any day than Pittsburgh Detroit, Chicablow Memphis Dallas Kansas City Cincinnati Milwaukee Nashville Louisville Cleveland
again kudos to KC and yes I'm a fan of KC and a toast to their success keep it going.
Lets remember St.Louis isn't far behind.
This thread is off the rails.
earthling wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:43 am
chriss752 wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:46 pm
Three Light is supposed to begin soon then
May not break ground until next year according to this but others think it may happen when crane for Two Light isn't needed anymore.
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -fast.html

And also...
“Since the One Light groundbreaking, the downtown population has grown from 21,000 to 26,000, and we are rapidly on our way to 33,000 by the end of 2019.
30K-35K is considered by urban planners as the critical mass point needed for a highly functioning downtown. That is, starts to draw broader range of retailers and also not dependent on events to sustain street life.
Wouldn't you base the number on people per square mile rather than an arbitrary definition of "downtown" which can vary greatly from city to city? South City and the CWE are dense (by Midwest standards anyway) and are fairly active - I think the census had a tract in the CWE that was densest in the state in 2010
wabash wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:59 pm
This thread is off the rails.
My apologies. I am genuinely thrilled to see construction in Kansas City, to see success. I also hope we don't make false comparisons, and learn from those that are true. This shouldn't be a popularity contest. KC is really quite a cool place, and Power and Light is bone-fide cool.
beer city wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:11 pm
Wouldn't you base the number on people per square mile rather than an arbitrary definition of "downtown" which can vary greatly from city to city?
Yeah, and KC's 'Greater Downtown' definition is pretty large. But over 85% of development is occurring within about 5 blocks of the streetcar line (downtown core, about 2 or so sq miles) - bikeshare extends access to the outer developments. It's approaching the critical mass point for a highly functioning downtown, should be realized within a couple more years. That is, highly functional w/out relying on events.

There's a benefit to having a short starter street car line as it compresses more development in that smallish area. It's more like a horizontal elevator connecting downtown districts rather than a commuter line. And because it's free to ride and directly within the street activity, it seamlessly ties together key areas as various downtown 'floors' for those who live within it. It's not about how long it is, it's about how you use it. :)
chriss752 wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:46 pm
Three Light is supposed to begin soon then
Probably next summer/early fall (a few months after Two Light opens next June) per this article
Two Light going up — and leasing up — fast

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/ ... -fast.html

This is a pretty good overview of the state of downtown KC residential, btw.
wabash wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:59 pm
This thread is off the rails.
Speaking of rails, I do think our Downtown/Midtown would be significantly further along if we had the STL Streetcar. (Might have pulled some momentum from CWE but that's not where we need redevelopment focus imo.) KC Streetcar's impact probably can be overstated, but I don't think there's any question it's been a big help for their downtown boon.
earthling,

do you know if the Mark Twain Building project has gotten underway? Last I saw the developer said they hoped to start in April... but It's by the same folks (Hudson Holdings) that just bought the Railway Exchange here and that a ton of announced projects in various cities across the country but few seemingly actually underway. Hopefully they are capable but I have doubts.
STLrainbow wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:15 pm
earthling,

do you know if the Mark Twain Building project has gotten underway? Last I saw the developer said they hoped to start in April... but It's by the same folks (Hudson Holdings) that just bought the Railway Exchange here and that a ton of announced projects in various cities across the country but few seemingly actually underway. Hopefully they are capable but I have doubts.
I saw some scaffolding around it early this year for apparently some external repairs but nothing new about the apt conversion since December...
http://www.kansascity.com/news/business ... 52323.html

Sounds like Hudson is slow moving with projects across country.

Will be interesting to see if downtown KC can continue to build new luxury units at a large scale. They are going well over $2/sqft now, some up to $2.30.

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