Northside-Southside Metrolink

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First unread post1275 posts
Do I like the route snaking through downtown? Definitely not.

Do I prefer just running this thing on Gravois to Tucker to Natural Bridge? 100%

Is running this down Jefferson and transferring at a new Red/Blue station at Jefferson just as fast as snaking through downtown? Potentially. But a one seat ride from Downtown to Cherokee St (for instance) is much more important than you'd think. Suggesting a transfer is a great example of planning from 10,000 feet. Looks good on a map, terrible on foot.

As for why the buses don't run though downtown anymore, should we tear out CityGarden or the Wainwright addition and move our primary bus transfer station there. YES, 100%, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD YES.
While I give this line my full support, I am puzzled why the Jefferson NGA route goes down Delmar instead of Washington Ave. In my opinion, nothing would reactivate that corridor faster than running Metro right through the heart of one of our most built up streets in downtown. Just look at what the KC streetcar has done to the Main Street corridor. Plus, Wash Ave and Delmar are similar widths. It just makes more sense.
GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:12 pm
While I give this line my full support, I am puzzled why the Jefferson NGA route goes down Delmar instead of Washington Ave. In my opinion, nothing would reactivate that corridor faster than running Metro right through the heart of one of our most built up streets in downtown. Just look at what the KC streetcar has done to the Main Street corridor. Plus, Wash Ave and Delmar are similar widths. It just makes more sense.
I think running it down Olive would be the best thing to happen.
goat314 wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:19 pm
GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:12 pm
While I give this line my full support, I am puzzled why the Jefferson NGA route goes down Delmar instead of Washington Ave. In my opinion, nothing would reactivate that corridor faster than running Metro right through the heart of one of our most built up streets in downtown. Just look at what the KC streetcar has done to the Main Street corridor. Plus, Wash Ave and Delmar are similar widths. It just makes more sense.
I think running it down Olive would be the best thing to happen.
And… now we're officially re-litigating the Northside-Southside alternatives analysis.
As I recall, the Olive/Jefferson option was the locally preferred alternative, yet was rejected for cost, time or some other reason. I do tend to think though that it would be a missed opportunity to provide Old North with light rail.
PeterXCV wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:05 am
I do tend to think though that it would be a missed opportunity to provide Old North with light rail.
That's why I'm a fan of the new St. Louis Ave alternative. Still serves Old North and St. Louis Place well, while also connecting to NGA. TOD opportunities abound with that alignment.
I still think City is way behind in its thinking. Realistically it will also be decade or more before N-S becomes reality & well after County makes sure that metrolink expansion happens in county first. So its time to admit the KC did things right recently and time to embrace a low floor modern streetcar plan for city that encourage north south development that compliments existing metrolink/central corridor as noted some of the posts over on nextstl.

My two picks for about 6-8 miles of street running, first one is a no brainer

1) Why hasn't the city put together a Grand Ave BRT or streetcar plan and engineering together??? This north south corridor has strong institutions, great public park, cultural center, a new half billion dollar hospital on top of the VA to the north not to mention an expanding international company who wants to anchor more development on top of Green Streets plan for Armory going forward. Not thinking big on Grand Ave is a huge missed opportunity on part of the city and a Grand Ave streetcar is doable and much more affordable in near term. Tie it in with an at grade FPP & Grand intersection.

2) Maybe a north south streetcar through downtown running on along a line drawn from new NGA to the old NGA or essemtially connecting downtown with the new NGA to the north and Soulard/Bud/Lemp to sought while making it sure it passes 14th street transit center/Amtrak as well as Nestle/Purina campus. Like Peter noted the area on north side ripe for TOD as well as the fact that you would connect it with an area of significant development already happening in Soulards & a major corporate employer who has been city friendly the day that Purina was bought out. This streetcar alignment would essentially create an x with a future N-S alignment.
Phase 1 is supposedly done.

Can someone explain why we talk so long to do this kind of stuff? Nashville has plans to dig up downtown and have a subway by 2026 but a street-running light rail is gonna take us to 2027?

http://www.northsidesouthsidestl.com/faq/
What do you mean by "done"?
^^ The typical reasons St. Louis drags its feet when it comes to anything worth doing. Racism, fragmentation, and infighting.
wabash wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:39 pm
What do you mean by "done"?
Can't remember what the first step was, but got a notice that it was completed so they are on to step 2 or whatever of the study.
Looking at all the proposed maps, it looks like the possible routes will zip past the Mullanphy Emigrant House on 14th and N. Florissant. This building is in bad shape but is really important to St. Louis' emigrant history. Any idea what will happen to the house when N-S builds through here? Will they keep the house? Tear it down? It helps that Metro looks like it will be in the middle of the street.
I wish they would have incorporated Gravois into the south side line. It touches so many important southside spots
BellaVilla wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:45 am
I wish they would have incorporated Gravois into the south side line. It touches so many important southside spots
From what I understand, it's a MoDot maintained road, which is why it would probably never happen.

It would be great to have a line down Gravois/Tucker, Jefferson, Kingshighway, Broadway and Grand. And E/W connectors down Chouteau, Arsenal, Chippewa, Lindell, Washington and Delmar.

At that point, it's basically just redoing all the work we tore out or paved over 50 years ago. And there's no way we would ever utilize such a system unless we gained back a couple hundred thousand residents. I just like to dream though.
Maybe someone can clarify a technical question/thought I have. Understand that in terms of fixed rail transit that as you go from streetcar to light rail to heavy commuter you are essentially increasing the weight of the rail to accommodate heavier transit vehicles/cars, more wear, so on. One reason for the increase in cost. But not sure if any systems in the US are designed as such that track infrastructure was built to a light rail spec but utilizing a lighter car such as a low floor streetcar until further expansion warrants a change in vehicle type/capacity

Where this is leading is if you look at N-S preferred route with NGA options the thought comes to mind that the city in the near term could pursue a Jefferson Ave streetcar tying NGA/near north side with Wells Fargo/mid town alley and South City in the short term while it N-S plays out. Essentially the beginning of city streetcar system that would satisfy the north south political divide by starting with a north south route, be part of a greater central corridor city system (Lindell east to west spine with north south running along Jefferson, Grand, maybe Broadway/river route) and probably doable in cost as it would be a relatively short route depending how far you go into south city & get Feds support via NGA development

However, the only way it makes sense if you build the overlapping routes to light rail standards to avoid ripping everything up and starting over. The downside is a Jefferson Ave streetcar wouldn't have a true metrolink transfer until N-S is built out and or a Jefferson Ave metrolink station is somehow added to the mix as part of the streetcar proposal. The other downside is it probably makes a lot more sense for a greater Grand Ave streetcar line first w existing metrolink connection & better chance to survive as stand alone if no further build out happens in the foreseeable future
A streetcar with it's own ROW using the current N/S plan would be much cheaper in my opinion.
goat314 wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:20 pm
A streetcar with it's own ROW using the current N/S plan would be much cheaper in my opinion.
Agree, and believe it would make things happen a lot quicker even if it is only within the city to start.

However, would it kill any county support for N-S fixed light rail as a whole? or would the alternative of BRT serving north and south county into downtown utilizing the same N-S streetcar city ROW become the likely outcome?
With Chouteau Greenway being revived, is there an chance that the existing south city rail line alignments will rise to the top of recommended configurations. Obviously this is assuming that Chouteau Greenway will still consist of central city railroad reconfiguration.


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I'm saying with 99.9% certainty, the N-S MetroLink route is not changing. Once the NGA option is chosen, it's locked in.
And I like the route. Dedicated ROW in the middle of Jefferson will work well. The central running Green Line is Minneapolis-St. Paul is surpassing it's already high ridership projections.
On a related note: Yes, it's going to take forever to wind through downtown but it's really dumb to build a rail line that doesn't even service the CBD. Maybe someday we can have a Jefferson downtown bypass line as well.
I support N-S, but what is the point of arguing about the proposed route of a line that is not going to be built?
Ebsy wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:43 pm
I support N-S, but what is the point of arguing about the proposed route of a line that is not going to be built?
What makes you say that? Also I need proof, not speculation.

My personal opinion. I think some form of N-S transit taking this route will happen. I could see them going N-S streetcar if it is determined that N-S Metrolink will be too costly.
The premise of this most recent discussion was based on the Chouteau Greenway being revived. Is there any sign that it is? I don't think I heard/saw that announcement.
wabash wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:22 pm
The premise of this most recent discussion was based on the Chouteau Greenway being revived. Is there any sign that it is? I don't think I heard/saw that announcement.
The greenway is happening, though it may be different than originally envisioned. https://greatriversgreenway.org/interna ... ign-teams/

Has anyone heard anything about the greater plan with the lake? I think the long-term assumption was that it was dead. Something made me wonder if there was hope for that, too, though. Has anyone else heard anything?
That's great news. Good to hear there's progress on that front.