Kiener Plaza Redevelopment

Downtown construction activity, including hotel projects, major renovations, office projects, streetscape improvements, etc.
STLEnginerd wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 9:49 pm
My beef is its replacement was never compelling enough to justify the expense. For instance if it had been proposed as an under ground garage facility with a park on top, while simultaneously paired with a significant development to replace one of the kiener garages, I would have been all for it. As it is... meh.
Amen!

Also, my office in Met Square overlooks the plaza and I've walked by several times at lunch - and I still don't really "get" the new design. From up above, it kind of just looks like a hodgepodge of random stuff and, while asymmetry can be cool, I think the design could have benefited from a bit more balance.

I've read that the concert area will be on the east side and accommodate 2,000 to 3,000 people. I have no idea where all these people or the stage will go - they planted trees all the way around the grassy oval thing on the east side (blocking views of a potential stage?) and one or two events with big crowds will do some serious damage to that grass (I'm worried we'll have big muddy oval in a couple of years).
I think the new Kiener design is better than the old, but the salt-and-pepper pavers are too much, IMO. Maybe they'll be less seizure-inducing from the ground than they are in aerial photos. As for overshadowing Citygarden, if the downtown population were larger it wouldn't be an issue. I think they compliment each other nicely. At the moment, though, we should probably be spending money fixing sidewalks, planting curb trees, filling potholes, and luring employers rather than building more extraneous, underused park space.
urban_dilettante wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 11:14 am
I think the new Kiener design is better than the old, but the salt-and-pepper pavers are too much, IMO. Maybe they'll be less seizure-inducing from the ground than they are in aerial photos. As for overshadowing Citygarden, if the downtown population were larger it wouldn't be an issue. I think they compliment each other nicely. At the moment, though, we should probably be spending money fixing sidewalks, planting curb trees, filling potholes, and luring employers rather than building more extraneous, underused park space.
They did all the above with this new park while also reducing an area that was hard to police. Market was reduced, repaved, and sidewalks extended. Yes they probably spent more than they should have on the park but I think improvements to a central city park is a good thing. If this renovation was done further down the gateway mall, I would have questioned it more. But this is dead center of the city that will draw more people in with better programming. I can't wait to check it out this weekend.
Hopefully this opening sparks some retail. There is an incredible amount of vacancy in and around the Kiener Garages. More than I've previously noticed.



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dmelsh wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 12:28 pm
urban_dilettante wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 11:14 am
I think the new Kiener design is better than the old, but the salt-and-pepper pavers are too much, IMO. Maybe they'll be less seizure-inducing from the ground than they are in aerial photos. As for overshadowing Citygarden, if the downtown population were larger it wouldn't be an issue. I think they compliment each other nicely. At the moment, though, we should probably be spending money fixing sidewalks, planting curb trees, filling potholes, and luring employers rather than building more extraneous, underused park space.
They did all the above with this new park while also reducing an area that was hard to police. Market was reduced, repaved, and sidewalks extended. Yes they probably spent more than they should have on the park but I think improvements to a central city park is a good thing. If this renovation was done further down the gateway mall, I would have questioned it more. But this is dead center of the city that will draw more people in with better programming. I can't wait to check it out this weekend.

Took the wife and our 2 month old down to see the new Kiener plaza. I still think it was too expensive but I do like the end product. Very open and clean layout and a little area for the kids there as well. Amazing views now looking directly towards the arch. http://imgur.com/swhAgoi
I like how the New York style park benches - black iron and dark green - curve around the landscaping. Nice touch.
addxb2 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:22 pm
Hopefully this opening sparks some retail. There is an incredible amount of vacancy in and around the Kiener Garages. More than I've previously noticed.



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This is not due to (lack of) interest as much as the fact that the owner of Kiener E/W require some unusual lease clauses that make investing in a buildout here extremely risky for a tenant.

Also, brace yourself because I believe it's going to get worse before it gets better.
addxb2 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:22 pm
Hopefully this opening sparks some retail. There is an incredible amount of vacancy in and around the Kiener Garages. More than I've previously noticed.



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parks don't spark retail. residents spark retail, and residents need jobs.
kinger wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 11:38 am
Also, brace yourself because I believe it's going to get worse before it gets better.
Hooters closing?
urban_dilettante wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 1:03 pm
addxb2 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:22 pm
Hopefully this opening sparks some retail. There is an incredible amount of vacancy in and around the Kiener Garages. More than I've previously noticed.



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parks don't spark retail. residents spark retail, and residents need jobs.
I think Urban_D sums it up pretty well. The two biggest things that need to happen for downtown right now is an anchor tenant for ATT One Center and for the love of god to start building BPV phase II IMO. Retail will happen.

DeWitt, seriously you don't have that much risk when your selling out at +40k per game across the street, ticket sales taxes are paying for the Cards supposed private investment and city subsidy train already made a stop for BPV phase II. Jobs and residents, residents and jobs. One part is ready to go if DeWitt would put a shovel in the ground. Filling ATT One center again is going to be a whole lot tougher.
At first i was very iffy about the design however i personally like the new Kiener i give it a thumbs up. I really do hope those awful garages either get renovated or torn down and put in place by some mid rise apartments with retail ..
St.Louis1764 wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 10:43 pm
At first i was very iffy about the design however i personally like the new Kiener i give it a thumbs up. I really do hope those awful garages either get renovated or torn down and put in place by some mid rise apartments with retail ..
Curious how much those parking garages make from Cards game. I believe they're $20 a spot and they're usually pretty full during game days
joelo wrote:
Tue May 23, 2017 9:40 am

Curious how much those parking garages make from Cards game. I believe they're $20 a spot and they're usually pretty full during game days
The Kiener Garages are only $6 on game days (the 2 stadium garages are $20 or $25). No idea how much they fill up but I bet the new plaza will help.
dredger wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 3:13 pm
urban_dilettante wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 1:03 pm
addxb2 wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 12:22 pm
Hopefully this opening sparks some retail. There is an incredible amount of vacancy in and around the Kiener Garages. More than I've previously noticed.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
parks don't spark retail. residents spark retail, and residents need jobs.
I think Urban_D sums it up pretty well. The two biggest things that need to happen for downtown right now is an anchor tenant for ATT One Center and for the love of god to start building BPV phase II IMO. Retail will happen.

DeWitt, seriously you don't have that much risk when your selling out at +40k per game across the street, ticket sales taxes are paying for the Cards supposed private investment and city subsidy train already made a stop for BPV phase II. Jobs and residents, residents and jobs. One part is ready to go if DeWitt would put a shovel in the ground. Filling ATT One center again is going to be a whole lot tougher.
I agree. Enough is enough, though. It's the same story with almost every developer in this city.
Visited the new Kiener on Monday after being out of town.

Two things struck me (forgive me if they have been addressed previously):

1) There are still no public restrooms in this expansive mall, with the exception of leaning, leaking, disgusting porta-john that's been blocking the sidewalk by CityGarden for years. Inexplicable.

2) Speaking of which, the packed gravel area with the tables and chairs at Kiener smells strongly of urine. The three of us who walked over there mentioned it simultaneously as we approached. Doggy litter box, or human?
bprop wrote:Visited the new Kiener on Monday after being out of town.

Two things struck me (forgive me if they have been addressed previously):

1) There are still no public restrooms in this expansive mall, with the exception of leaning, leaking, disgusting porta-john that's been blocking the sidewalk by CityGarden for years. Inexplicable.

2) Speaking of which, the packed gravel area with the tables and chairs at Kiener smells strongly of urine. The three of us who walked over there mentioned it simultaneously as we approached. Doggy litter box, or human?
An excellent point, however the public restrooms would almost immediately become a hotel for the homeless and seedy individuals. Not worth the risk.


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Chalupas54 wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:24 pm
bprop wrote:Visited the new Kiener on Monday after being out of town.

Two things struck me (forgive me if they have been addressed previously):

1) There are still no public restrooms in this expansive mall, with the exception of leaning, leaking, disgusting porta-john that's been blocking the sidewalk by CityGarden for years. Inexplicable.

2) Speaking of which, the packed gravel area with the tables and chairs at Kiener smells strongly of urine. The three of us who walked over there mentioned it simultaneously as we approached. Doggy litter box, or human?
An excellent point, however the public restrooms would almost immediately become a hotel for the homeless and seedy individuals. Not worth the risk.

"Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is: Never try ..."
The Old Courthouse has restrooms.
Chalupas54 wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:24 pm

An excellent point, however the public restrooms would almost immediately become a hotel for the homeless and seedy individuals. Not worth the risk.


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What about a pay toilet?
Urban urinals are decently popular in Europe. IMO they should put these in downtown and every Metrolink station.

Image
Here are a bunch of day and nighttime photos. For those that have visited, what do you think?http://www.stlouiscitytalk.com/2017/05/ ... rsion.html
Great photos. Thanks for posting. Looks nice, but I haven't been in person yet.
I ate lunch there today. A k-bop bowl, it's "Korean bbq in a cup!" One thing I noticed is that the grassy lozenge on the east end really is a hill. It's taller than it looked in pictures. I watched a guy run up it with his dog and it reminded me of the Sound of Music sequence in the mountains. Not really. But it is a hill. One thing it isn't is Citygarden2. It has none of the intrigue of Citygarden, with all of those paths and half paths and multiple ways walk through. It feels more like the new park between the old courthouse and the arch, or the plaza by the old post office. When the trees get bigger and actually produce shade I think the garden patio part will be nice. Today each table was very precisely positioned below the tiny amount of shade produced by those baby trees. One really cool thing is how different Market feels along this park now. It's narrower and calmer, and 7th street (I think) is like nothing to walk across. Other streets downtown need this treatment. They are much too wide for the amount of traffic on them. Chestnut, Market, Tucker (though this one is pretty busy). We'll see. The reason Citygarden is so great is that it has a small army of people caring for it every day. Is there another army ready to care for Kiener plaza?
danke0 wrote:
Fri May 26, 2017 10:50 pm
The reason Citygarden is so great is that it has a small army of people caring for it every day. Is there another army ready to care for Kiener plaza?
That's my question as well. Citygarden has the ever-present [friendly] guards bearing dog treats and a constant stream of people tending plants and fountains. When they need to access something underground, they restore the grounds to where they were.

The first time underground utility access in Kiener is needed, I can see a City street crew bashing a hole in the ground and patching it with asphalt after leaving a gaping hole for three months.
The City Arch Group is transitioning from over seeing construction to maintaining the property. Hopefully with a fairly large endowment they can do as good of a job as Forest Park Forever has done with protecting their investment.